Stamina Loss and Swing TImer

[Krug'gruk]

Yea, not a fan of the new changes at all. I understand that the changes are being made in an effort to keep the server "era-accurate", I just wish that these changes weren't. You'll probably see a great deal less of Krug'gruk following the implimentation of this patch.

[kill drizitz]

double hally hit from what i remember was all about the the image of swinging.

i remember on osi when it came out a couple of buddies were at the graveyard testing it.

like i said: i remember you equiping, half way through the animation of the swing you unequip,

then quickly re-equip. the second swing would be extra fast as if it was the second half of

your first animated swing. i think it had something to do with how slow the hally swing was

animated.

[Kaivan]

OK, where is your documentation that wrestling wasnt static? For in T2a it most surely was, probably not UO:R as they added the stupid wrestling special moves. Wrestling was the core of the tank mage bug that caused weapon combos with spells, hence why you could cast a 6th level spell, release it and immediately get a swing with slow weapons.
Casting times on that demo are incorrect, that demo didnt have any the patches an changes that the game of the day did. You cant pass off that demo as how the game was, it wasnt like that. There were skill delays added to the end of every spell to stop exploits using last target, etc. Many changes not reflected in that demo what so ever.
Casting times where never changed until later expansions, they were always .5 seconds per circle, which I cant even believe this needs to be disputed.

Double swings didnt need you cast a spell, but if you used low level spells you could toss a spell casting in there while you set up a double swing.
Double swings occured because you could load mutliple swing timers ontop of one another. Thats it, it worked well with slow weapons because it took a while to set it up an would have been impractical/pointless to even try with faster weapons.

The point I always try to pound home about combos with spells, 5th level and up spells could easily be combo'ed with hally hits back in the day, 4th level spells and below reacted differently.
If I Corp Por and release it, immediately equip a hally I get a hit.
If I lightning and release it, an immediately equip a hally I get NOTHING
This was T2a

The burden of proof for whether wrestling did, or did not have a static swing speed is not on me, it's on you. However, I will provide you with some information. Wrestling followed the same 15000/([Stamina + 100] * Weapon Speed). If it did not, there would be some evidence, somewhere, that mentioned that wrestling was the exception to the rule. No such exception exists anywhere. As such, the only logical conclusion that can be made is that wrestling follows the same speed formula as all other weaponry (The only reason that stratics has the ?? for the base speed of wrestling is because that base speed was never given in any body of information).

If what you say is true and cast times did not change until later expansions, then logically speaking, the UODemo, which is a build of the game from a couple of months prior to T2A, falls within the time frame where cast times did not change. If that is the case, and the UODemo does not agree with the 0.5 second cast delay, then obviously the 0.5 second cast delay is incorrect, and thus the stratics information is incorrect. Secondly, while it is true the many many things changed over the course of T2A, and that the UODemo is almost entirely unreliable in terms of how things worked, for things that didn't change (such as cast timers), the UODemo is a very accurate tool to understand those things. Beyond that, the demo is always back checked against other information, in this case the patch notes and the UOGuide. Both resources confirm, and match the cast times in the Demo (The patch notes do not record any change to cast times until Febuary 2003 with the release of Age of Shadows, and the UOGuide from September 2002 - which is during that time period where no changes to cast times occurred - also records matching data to the UODemo). Finally, the addition of recast timers, and other additions to curb exploits by 3rd party programs were never made directly to the cast time itself, and thus have no bearing on the actual cast time.

Finally, cast times and weapon swing speeds were entirely seperate from eachother. While it is true that by convenience of time you could cast 2 6th circle spells with a 1.75 second cast time and a 0.5 second recast delay, totaling 4.5 seconds, your halberd would be nearly ready to swing with 0.3 seconds of the 4.8 second swing delay (at 25 stamina) just after the combo was completed. The two timers were in no way linked. There is no logically defendable reason why casting a 4th circle spell or smaller, under any circumstances that you do not wrestle your opponent, would force you to mysteriously relinquish your halberd swing.

double hit was the funnest way of PVPing on uo- ever.
I also dont remember it being as "slow" as malice is describing though.. but I do remember it: When I was taught how to do the double hit bug, it was described to me as unequipping your weapon (using a spell or unequip macro) ONCE you see your hally animate "up" for the swing: and if you tabbed/re-equipped the hally fast enough you would get a second swing which i was told was the "end" of the first swing..
Since my memory isn't perfect, I can only assume I am missing something that I was told, but for the most part when I played i'd look for my hally movements..
o.O

double hally hit from what i remember was all about the the image of swinging.

i remember on osi when it came out a couple of buddies were at the graveyard testing it.

like i said: i remember you equiping, half way through the animation of the swing you unequip,

then quickly re-equip. the second swing would be extra fast as if it was the second half of

your first animated swing. i think it had something to do with how slow the hally swing was

animated.

From what is described here, a second plausable theory can be created.

Depending on how the server is set to handle swing delay timers, it is possible for double hits to be linked to the animation of the swing. If the time between swing delays is designed to only begin counting down once the animation for the swing has completed, then it is possible that a double swing could occur on long animation weapons (such as Halberds). This system would have also favored lower dexterity characters based on the fact that the speed at which the animation was played was partially based on the dexterity of the character, which would in turn affect the beginning of the swing delay cooldown (this would account for the extremely diminished usefulness for a dexxer as compared to a Tank Mage).

This is a second sound theory that links two aspects of the game that would logically be linked in the first place.

[Artemis]

Finally, cast times and weapon swing speeds were entirely seperate from eachother. While it is true that by convenience of time you could cast 2 6th circle spells with a 1.75 second cast time and a 0.5 second recast delay, totaling 4.5 seconds, your halberd would be nearly ready to swing with 0.3 seconds of the 4.8 second swing delay (at 25 stamina) just after the combo was completed. The two timers were in no way linked. There is no logically defendable reason why casting a 4th circle spell or smaller, under any circumstances that you do not wrestle your opponent, would force you to mysteriously relinquish your halberd swing.

Say what? I used to cast a Corp Por, a 3 second casting time, Equip a halberd and get a swing EVERY TIME over and over guarenteed. 3 seconds! Not 4.5 seconds, the only explanation is the wrestling timer was stacking on top of the casting timers for whatever reason. At some point I did actually find some documentation stating wrestling was 2.4 seconds, Im trying to find it again, but its been years since Ive had such a discussion , heh.
And yes, wrestling/autodefend used to steal this swing away from tank mages. If you ever actually played a tank mage back in the day you would know this very, very well. Thats why dexers owned mages back in the day, you couldnt combo weapons hits with spells on someone constantly in your face. And this time im not the only one posting this up.
Casting times were changed with UO:R, as well as the protection spell, reactive armor spell, inscription skill and the wrestling skill all of which contributed to no more tank mage. Protection and Reactive armor used to be targetable, but that changed with UO:R. UO:R was when casting went all nutty and they changed a lot of spells and skills associated with magery. I cant believe people forgot spell timers? Didnt anyone play IPY? They had right spell timers, and everyone already forgot correct timers?
Do people honestly not remember 6th level spell casting times being 3 seconds?
Discussion like this start to give me hope as other people seem to remember some stuff.

[Artemis]

1.75 casting timer for 6th level spells?
Thats pure mage casting timers, pure mages were not viable in this era because casting timers were much slower.
And using logic on a game that changed randomly per patch with bugs that made all sorts of crazy illogical stuff happen is kinda difficult. There were a lot of bugs that made some skills and spells act very funny, why? Because the code was so screwed up, but I assure you wrestling played an intricate part of the tank mage combos.

[Kaivan]

Say what? I used to cast a Corp Por, a 3 second casting time, Equip a halberd and get a swing EVERY TIME over and over guarenteed. 3 seconds! Not 4.5 seconds, the only explanation is the wrestling timer was stacking on top of the casting timers for whatever reason.

Your claim not only does not match the cast time, but does not match the mechanics of how weapons worked, either. The only way that your system (if it was assumedly correct from the start) would possibly work is if the swing delay from swinging your halberd (in the energy bolt, halberd, energy bolt, halberd pattern you claim existed) would suddenly change to the swing delay from your wrestling skill when you de-equipped to cast. Since weapon delays do not work in that manner (and never have), your system could not possibly work, even if the two timers were arbitrarily linked. (Just as a note for anyone else who might read this, when you swung a weapon, regardless of the weapon in your hand, the swing delay until your next weapon swing was always based on the weapon you just finished swinging)

At some point I did actually find some documentation stating wrestling was 2.4 seconds, Im trying to find it again, but its been years since Ive had such a discussion , heh.

Until you find your proof (which must be a credible source for such information), the only evidence for combat mechanics that exists gives no special treatement to Wrestling, thus it has a variable speed like everything else.

And yes, wrestling/autodefend used to steal this swing away from tank mages. If you ever actually played a tank mage back in the day you would know this very, very well. Thats why dexers owned mages back in the day, you couldnt combo weapons hits with spells on someone constantly in your face. And this time im not the only one posting this up.

First off, where did I ever state that wrestling did not reset your swing? If you actually read what I said, you would see that I am quite aware that wrestling was capable of wasting your insta hit (here is the quote so you can see what I'm talking about).

There is no logically defendable reason why casting a 4th circle spell or smaller, under any circumstances that you do not wrestle your opponent (meaning if you did wrestle your opponent you would lose your next swing), would force you to mysteriously relinquish your halberd swing.

---------

Casting times were changed with UO:R, as well as the protection spell, reactive armor spell, inscription skill and the wrestling skill all of which contributed to no more tank mage. Protection and Reactive armor used to be targetable, but that changed with UO:R. UO:R was when casting went all nutty and they changed a lot of spells and skills associated with magery. I cant believe people forgot spell timers? Didnt anyone play IPY? They had right spell timers, and everyone already forgot correct timers?

If you had taken the time to read through the patch notes for UOR (through the entire history of patch notes), you would note that every change you talk about is well documented as an addition to the game except for the spell timers (all of the other changes are from the UOR release notes, and are clearly documented). Since no patch notes exist for such a drastic change as cutting the cast time as much as 50% for higher circle spells (which would have been noted by several different sources of information if such a drastic change had occurred), it is quite obvious that the spell timers did not change. You also seem to forget that the UODemo - a source of information which is during the time frame that you claim that spells did not change - also shows that you are not correct.

Do people honestly not remember 6th level spell casting times being 3 seconds?
Discussion like this start to give me hope as other people seem to remember some stuff.

No one else is claiming that spells had a 0.5 second delay per circle except you. There is also only one other person who is claiming that spells ever interacted with weapon swings, and his claim is even more outlandish than yours, claiming that spell timers such as harm would entirely reset the swing timer for a halberd (read his post if you want to see for yourself), allowing you to effectively swing your halberd as fast as someone swinging a katana with 160 stamina. On top of that, both you and he have provided no logical reason for why these timers would interact in any shape or form, you have simply stated examples of situations where you believe it should work.

1.75 casting timer for 6th level spells?
Thats pure mage casting timers, pure mages were not viable in this era because casting timers were much slower.
And using logic on a game that changed randomly per patch with bugs that made all sorts of crazy illogical stuff happen is kinda difficult. There were a lot of bugs that made some skills and spells act very funny, why? Because the code was so screwed up, but I assure you wrestling played an intricate part of the tank mage combos.

So now you're saying that there were two different cast timers dependent on what template you chose, yeilding tank mage timers and the pure mage timers? That makes even less sense than what you were origonally proposing. As for applying logic to how a computer program fuctions, it is an extremely easy thing to do, considering that programs in themselves are logical, and follow the logical process. While some things in game acted unusual, it was due to code that interacted, and had a reason to interact (because in order for any code to interact you have to purposely force it to do so). Casting timers and weapon swing timers never had any reason to interact. As such, it would not be in the interest of any programmer to purposely code any interactions between weapon and spell timers that were not necessary (and there are none). Since there are no necessary interactions between spell timers and weapon timers, it is only logical to conculde that there are no interactions.

[Artemis]

As a veteran Player, Pk'er and (I will out right say it) inventor/pioneer of these combos of this era I find it hard to believe anyone that actually played this era could possibly get this stuff, these combos and spell timings so horribly wrong. If you didnt play this era how can you even concieve of disputing it?
The swings acted as they did because of bugs, there's nothing logical about how patches interacted with each other to create bugs. While casting your wrestling timer was going and it just so happened that big damage spells finished just after the wrestling timer did, why this caused a swing to load is anybody's guess.
There were numerous skill gaining bugs, can those be easily explained? No
Lol, Ive had this same up hill battle with the last couple shards, it would be funny if it wasnt so sad.
Combat was never this fast paced

[Kaivan]

As a veteran Player, Pk'er and (I will out right say it) inventor/pioneer of these combos of this era I find it hard to believe anyone that actually played this era could possibly get this stuff, these combos and spell timings so horribly wrong. If you didnt play this era how can you even concieve of disputing it?
The swings acted as they did because of bugs, there's nothing logical about how patches interacted with each other to create bugs. While casting your wrestling timer was going and it just so happened that big damage spells finished just after the wrestling timer did, why this caused a swing to load is anybody's guess.
There were numerous skill gaining bugs, can those be easily explained? No
Lol, Ive had this same up hill battle with the last couple shards, it would be funny if it wasnt so sad.
Combat was never this fast paced

There is so much to be said about what you wrote, but I won't comment anymore on it in this thread. This thread is not for touting you're superior UO experience over the next person, and this is not the place for me to be correcting what you say. All that I will say is that you have yet to show me one single solitary peice of evidence that supports any of what you have claimed in this thread. Perhaps once you find some actual evidence to back up your claims, they might actually have some credibility.