Stamina Loss and Swing TImer

[Derrick]

anyways derrick you said this was the last patch for pvp, does this mean your not considering
the spell delay changes? or was that part of this patch?

We're going to be adding to the patch slight spell changes and possibly what Malice mentions above. Still researching some issues so we've still no release date on this.

Thanks guys!

[Kaivan]

I finally was able to test this out.

This patch is accurate BUT it is missing a whole aspect / bug that made it so the timer really only affected dexers. The bug was one of the main reasons OSI patched out precasting but it is what made the era so fun!


Anyone remember "double" weapon hits and specifically "double" hally hits?

This was made possible because there was a "bug" in game for a long time ( called precasting) which enabled you to reset weapon timer virtually infinitely by casting.

while at the SAME TIME there was the resetting timer we have on the test center now that only advanced while standing still.

so what does this mean?

You could cast harm > hally swing > harm > hally swing >weaken> hally swing > during a fight with no delays.

It also meant that if you were patient and held a swing tabbing and other difficult methods you could hit twice with your halberd with one animation. This was a deadly attack, difficult to predict and slow. Usually it was an accidental and fortunate occurance.

This bug was NOT in the patch notes because OSI had a policy to not specifically spell out bugs in patch notes for some fear of abuse. It however is proof that there was in fact two weapon timers at play simultaneously.


currently I have only anecdotal evidence but maybe someone can reply with a supporting statement?

One of the main reasons PVP'ers had to get UOA was because UOA arm/disarm was much faster than UO clients slow addition for arm /disarm. you needed the fast disarm / arm to effectively PVP in the field and duels because of the fast reset swing from spells. One of the first things I noticed when I cam here was the hally didnt reset during some of my combos i had macros for from OSI server.

I think while we have an opportunity to test the patch we should put in this wrinkle and see how people like it!

The most sound theory for the double weapon swing has to do with the way that the game handled time, not with arbitrarily linking spellcasting with weapon timers.

The theory is based off the addition of this particular patch note:

Colored ore, granting karma, and combat changes Feb 2 1999 10:57AM

• Equipping a weapon now causes a short "prep time" before you can start swinging.

The theory basically says that if you are waiting out the time to swing again, and you rearm your weapon with the same amount of time (+/- a very very marginal amount of time) left until your next swing as the "prep" timer, then the two timers would reach zero at the same time, confirming that you are ready to swing two seperate times.

To give you an example, suppose that you swing a halberd, with 25 stamina. Also, suppose that the "prep time" is 0.5 seconds. When you swing your halberd, the delay between your first swing and your second swing is 4.8 seconds. Now, suppose that you arm your halberd, 4.3 seconds into the swing delay. At that point, the "prep time" timer starts to count down. Given that you have exactly 0.5 seconds left on your swing timer when you rearm, and the "prep time" timer is also 0.5 seconds, when each timer reaches zero, you will be confirmed as ready to swing by two seperate timers, each allowing you to swing.

While this is only theory, this is the only theory that actually has any logical connection in-game.

[Slade]

Wait, does this mean that you intend to make it so that you cannot swing on the run?

How will non-magery based characters do damage to fleeing opponents? I must be misunderstanding something.... this sounds devastating for dexers.

[BlackFoot]

i think a reason this server has done so well and is doing so well is that it actually does have a goal - accuracy. i dont think ive ever been on a server that has had a goal tha tthey can state, which means the server just ends up bending to the will of the loudest most obnoxious people and ultimately loses any credibility or trust players had in the staff and the server falls apart. knowing that the staff isnt going to bend to peoples own person 'wants' because they have that goal does a lot to establish credibility and trust in the staff.

off topic?

staff here has never bent over for anyone, not even being questioned...

anyways derrick you said this was the last patch for pvp, does this mean your not considering
the spell delay changes? or was that part of this patch?

sorry guess i didnt make the point of my post clear enough. it was only that if it is accurate it shoudl be implemented, regardless of how loud a couple people cry.. but now i sound condescending.

[Derrick]

Wait, does this mean that you intend to make it so that you cannot swing on the run?

How will non-magery based characters do damage to fleeing opponents? I must be misunderstanding something.... this sounds devastating for dexers.

This is why stamina loss when running is also part of this patch, you can't have one without the other.

You can swing while running and you will slowly gain time towards a swing while running across the map as well due to turns and other slight pauses and latency.

[Slade]

Wait, does this mean that you intend to make it so that you cannot swing on the run?

How will non-magery based characters do damage to fleeing opponents? I must be misunderstanding something.... this sounds devastating for dexers.

This is why stamina loss when running is also part of this patch, you can't have one without the other.

You can swing while running and you will slowly gain time towards a swing while running across the map as well due to turns and other slight pauses and latency.

So in order to compete, I just need a weapon and a keg of total refresh potions? Sounds reasonable.

That is, unless my horse decides it's tired first, and then I'm completely SOL. Or maybe his horse will die first, then I have just been gifted the kill by the RNG.

I play mages just like the next guy, but this change is going to be a HUGE blow to melee archetypes.

[alatar]

Wait, does this mean that you intend to make it so that you cannot swing on the run?

How will non-magery based characters do damage to fleeing opponents? I must be misunderstanding something.... this sounds devastating for dexers.

This is why stamina loss when running is also part of this patch, you can't have one without the other.

You can swing while running and you will slowly gain time towards a swing while running across the map as well due to turns and other slight pauses and latency.

So in order to compete, I just need a weapon and a keg of total refresh potions? Sounds reasonable.

That is, unless my horse decides it's tired first, and then I'm completely SOL. Or maybe his horse will die first, then I have just been gifted the kill by the RNG.

I play mages just like the next guy, but this change is going to be a HUGE blow to melee archetypes.

i think people are starting to get it now..

[Kaivan]

In essence, the fact that dexxer classes operated this way was the reason behind their weakness during T2A. In combat, running away provided a Tank Mage with time to regenerate mana, while the dexxer recieved nothing. Combine this with the fact that insta-hit almost solely benefits a Tank, and the benefit that the casting time gave to a Tank under this system, and you can see what made the Tank Mage such an unprecidented class.

[kill drizitz]

the double hally hit was purely timing, and im not sure that a harm would reset the hally.

the double hally hit was a bug that had to with equiping a hally-unequiping-then reequiping.

IF your timing was right it would send a second hit as if it never finished first.

ALSO, when i first started here, i was like 90% sure the double hit was here. i did it to sheep

with qstaffs, and a few times at shame with hally. havent tried in pvp cuz timings so hard to

get.

[Artemis]

the double hally hit was purely timing, and im not sure that a harm would reset the hally.

the double hally hit was a bug that had to with equiping a hally-unequiping-then reequiping.

IF your timing was right it would send a second hit as if it never finished first.

ALSO, when i first started here, i was like 90% sure the double hit was here. i did it to sheep

with qstaffs, and a few times at shame with hally. havent tried in pvp cuz timings so hard to

get.

Low level spells, 1st to 4th level spells wouldnt reset the hally, but 5th level and above would. Why? Because your wrestling timer was part of the swing bug, the wrestling timer was 2.4 seconds and casting a 5th level (2.5 seconds casting time with hands empty) and above spell would allow the wrestling timer to complete, wiping the current timer and setting up a new swing. Lower level spells (.5 seconds to 2 second casting times) you could complete casting before the wrestling timer would wipe your current swing out allowing you to re-equip sooner an save that swing. Thats why it was so tough to do the bigger combos, you had to constantly juggle weapon timers with your wrestling timer and with your spell casting timers.
Wrestling does play a factor as if someone was near you while casting, you would be forced to auto defend causing you to swing while wrestling an making you in effect lose your instant hit swing.

And dexer arent hurting here, with 100 dex and a fast weapon they can swing 2 times everytime a mage casts a 6th level spell. They are doing damage, interrupting the mages casting AND they can use heal skill all at the sametime. Every spell the mage casts they are forced stand still, plenty of time for a dexer to get swings.

[Kaivan]

Low level spells, 1st to 4th level spells wouldnt reset the hally, but 5th level and above would. Why? Because your wrestling timer was part of the swing bug, the wrestling timer was 2.4 seconds and casting a 5th level (2.5 seconds casting time with hands empty) and above spell would allow the wrestling timer to complete, wiping the current timer and setting up a new swing. Lower level spells (.5 seconds to 2 second casting times) you could complete casting before the wrestling timer would wipe your current swing out allowing you to re-equip sooner an save that swing. Thats why it was so tough to do the bigger combos, you had to constantly juggle weapon timers with your wrestling timer and with your spell casting timers.
Wrestling does play a factor as if someone was near you while casting, you would be forced to auto defend causing you to swing while wrestling an making you in effect lose your instant hit swing.

And dexer arent hurting here, with 100 dex and a fast weapon they can swing 2 times everytime a mage casts a 6th level spell. They are doing damage, interrupting the mages casting AND they can use heal skill all at the sametime. Every spell the mage casts they are forced stand still, plenty of time for a dexer to get swings.

There are several problems with what you have suggested:

• The wrestle timer was not static, it varied by dexterity, just like any other weapon. Thus, a 2.4 second reset time is an unsupported claim.
• 5th circle spell reset was not 2.5 seconds. This is one of the few major occurences of an error persisting throughout the history of stratics. Evidence supporting the errors in stratics information comes from code pulled from the UODemo (which reflects the cast times that existed through to the end of UOR) shows that the cast times were not 0.5 pre circle. If that is not enough evidence, the cast times for each circle are given on archived versions of the UO Guide, and they too support the error in the stratics cast time, and perfectly match the UODemo cast times. I have linked the guide in other threads, so it should be fairly easy to find.
• You provide no logical reason for why a double swing is associated with spell casting. Simply claiming that it is based on cast timers does not make it so.

If anyone has any ideas on why a double swing might occur, please share them. But try to find a logical reason why there would be a relationship between the swing timer and what you propose.

[Artemis]

Low level spells, 1st to 4th level spells wouldnt reset the hally, but 5th level and above would. Why? Because your wrestling timer was part of the swing bug, the wrestling timer was 2.4 seconds and casting a 5th level (2.5 seconds casting time with hands empty) and above spell would allow the wrestling timer to complete, wiping the current timer and setting up a new swing. Lower level spells (.5 seconds to 2 second casting times) you could complete casting before the wrestling timer would wipe your current swing out allowing you to re-equip sooner an save that swing. Thats why it was so tough to do the bigger combos, you had to constantly juggle weapon timers with your wrestling timer and with your spell casting timers.
Wrestling does play a factor as if someone was near you while casting, you would be forced to auto defend causing you to swing while wrestling an making you in effect lose your instant hit swing.

And dexer arent hurting here, with 100 dex and a fast weapon they can swing 2 times everytime a mage casts a 6th level spell. They are doing damage, interrupting the mages casting AND they can use heal skill all at the sametime. Every spell the mage casts they are forced stand still, plenty of time for a dexer to get swings.

There are several problems with what you have suggested:

• The wrestle timer was not static, it varied by dexterity, just like any other weapon. Thus, a 2.4 second reset time is an unsupported claim.
• 5th circle spell reset was not 2.5 seconds. This is one of the few major occurences of an error persisting throughout the history of stratics. Evidence supporting the errors in stratics information comes from code pulled from the UODemo (which reflects the cast times that existed through to the end of UOR) shows that the cast times were not 0.5 pre circle. If that is not enough evidence, the cast times for each circle are given on archived versions of the UO Guide, and they too support the error in the stratics cast time, and perfectly match the UODemo cast times. I have linked the guide in other threads, so it should be fairly easy to find.
• You provide no logical reason for why a double swing is associated with spell casting. Simply claiming that it is based on cast timers does not make it so.

If anyone has any ideas on why a double swing might occur, please share them. But try to find a logical reason why there would be a relationship between the swing timer and what you propose.

OK, where is your documentation that wrestling wasnt static? For in T2a it most surely was, probably not UO:R as they added the stupid wrestling special moves. Wrestling was the core of the tank mage bug that caused weapon combos with spells, hence why you could cast a 6th level spell, release it and immediately get a swing with slow weapons.
Casting times on that demo are incorrect, that demo didnt have any the patches an changes that the game of the day did. You cant pass off that demo as how the game was, it wasnt like that. There were skill delays added to the end of every spell to stop exploits using last target, etc. Many changes not reflected in that demo what so ever.
Casting times where never changed until later expansions, they were always .5 seconds per circle, which I cant even believe this needs to be disputed.

Double swings didnt need you cast a spell, but if you used low level spells you could toss a spell casting in there while you set up a double swing.
Double swings occured because you could load mutliple swing timers ontop of one another. Thats it, it worked well with slow weapons because it took a while to set it up an would have been impractical/pointless to even try with faster weapons.

The point I always try to pound home about combos with spells, 5th level and up spells could easily be combo'ed with hally hits back in the day, 4th level spells and below reacted differently.
If I Corp Por and release it, immediately equip a hally I get a hit.
If I lightning and release it, an immediately equip a hally I get NOTHING
This was T2a

[malice-tg]

If anyone has any ideas on why a double swing might occur, please share them. But try to find a logical reason why there would be a relationship between the swing timer and what you propose.

I gave my ideas. the arm disarm thing you mentioned was not the way you did double hit. there were a few ways to do it everytime. but it was slow. each method had to do with casting a spell.

dexers would often get a double hit if they used magic spells also but generaly only for the first hit... this was a good start to a fight for them tho.

the insta swing related only to wrestling in the fact that if you were already engaged in melee wrestling combat and then armed your halberd you would not insta swing.

no matter which timer was the cause if you were wrestling and armed the hally you did not insta swing. this probably caused alot of confusion and or theories about how its related to the halberd but it was only related in this way.

this wrestling while arming was the only way combos would be rendered impotent. otherwise everytime you comboed the hally would swing without fail.

this fast cast resetting of the weapon timer caused alot of people to drop wrestling and go anatomy which would be fairly useless with the current swing timers on test. think about it.

I only mentioned the double hit to present a case for putting in a second swing timer. I think the double hit itself is not the important issue. the issue is fixing the weapon swings so the precasting pvp is correct.

[platy]

double hit was the funnest way of PVPing on uo- ever.
I also dont remember it being as "slow" as malice is describing though.. but I do remember it: When I was taught how to do the double hit bug, it was described to me as unequipping your weapon (using a spell or unequip macro) ONCE you see your hally animate "up" for the swing: and if you tabbed/re-equipped the hally fast enough you would get a second swing which i was told was the "end" of the first swing..
Since my memory isn't perfect, I can only assume I am missing something that I was told, but for the most part when I played i'd look for my hally movements..
o.O

[Slade]

And dexer arent hurting here, with 100 dex and a fast weapon they can swing 2 times everytime a mage casts a 6th level spell. They are doing damage, interrupting the mages casting AND they can use heal skill all at the sametime. Every spell the mage casts they are forced stand still, plenty of time for a dexer to get swings.

Yes, in a 1v1 arena duel setting.

In the open field, a mage merely has to run in a straight line away from the dexer and spam pots until he runs out of stamina and then recall or whatever.

Balancing the game for your little 12x12 arena duels is silly.