Proposed mechanics changes for era consistency.

[Derrick]

Derrick has pretty much put the formula that is being proposed(the demo formula) on hold until proven to be true without a doubt.

Aye. I'm still looking at this as stated above. I have neither coded this for UOSA or verified the formula yet. While I'm hoping to make a poison change in this patch I don't want these questions to hold up the rest of these items.

Interesting read related with poisoning : http://web.archive.org/web/19991104002 ... sessay.htm

Thanks. This is a very good resource on the cure potions as well which will also be verified.

[venox]

that reference also states how curing deadly poison with magery takes several attempts...

[q]
Curing Poisons

Finally, one must also know how to cure poison. Generally, the Cure spell is sufficient to cure Greater Poison and below, although I myself am almost a Grandmaster Mage, so that tends to help a bit. ;) The most powerful potion is difficult to Cure even with this high of a Magery skill; in my personal experience, I've had to cast Cure three to four times before eliminating a Deadly Poison in someone's system. This spell seems to be somewhere between Deadly and Greater Poison in terms of effectiveness. [q/]

[Safir]

Does this mean that House Deeds will no longer fetch full value when sold to a "Real Estate Broker"?

Someone know how it'll be?

House deeds will be redeemed with the Real Estate Broker for the full purchace price.

Ahh, Sweet! Thanks! ;)

[Kaivan]

that reference also states how curing deadly poison with magery takes several attempts...

[q]
Curing Poisons

Further, one must also know how to cure poison. Generally, the Cure spell is sufficient to cure Greater Poison and below, although I myself am almost a Grandmaster Mage, so that tends to help a bit. ;) The most powerful potion is difficult to Cure even with this high of a Magery skill; in my personal experience, I've had to cast Cure three to four times before eliminating a Deadly Poison in someone's system. This spell seems to be somewhere between Deadly and Greater Poison in terms of effectiveness. [q/]

That particular quote from the guide is where I draw a conclusion that something had changed between the demo and late T2A. While the author's description of frequency of casts for deadly poison may be off by a little bit, the reality is that unless we conclude that his estimation of attempted cures and his description of his magery were drastically wrong, this guide suggests that there were serious changes done to the way that cure worked.

To point out my exact issues, lets assume that whats said in the above guide is what he as a mage experienced. The first statement said that he was nearly a grandmaster mage. While I don't make any grandiose claims about what he was saying, generally speaking, someone who is above 94-95 could accurately describe themselves as "nearly a grandmaster" in their skill, and it essentially necessitates someone who is above 90 skill for that statement to make any sense. Given an assumed skill of 94 or 90, we can work out the equation for the success chance on deadly poison. The results:

• (10000 + (6750 - 7000))/100 = 97.5% <----- 90 Magery
• (10000 + (7050 - 7000))/100 = 100.5% <----- 94 Magery

This information shows that under either set of circumstances, your chance to cure was extremely high, or guaranteed. Given that as the case, it hardly fits the description of his experience showing that a player needed to attempt to cure 3-4 times before success. If we assume that any reasonable amount of his experience was in the 90+ range, and that his information speaks to that skill level, we have a severe disconnect between the demo values and the average attempts required as explained by the guide's author.

Finally, if we were to assume that, hypothetically speaking, the author was speaking to the "average player's" skill level, even at extremely low numbers right around the point where you could purchase your skill from the vendor (lets say, 30 skill), the guide hardly results in 3 (33%) to 4 (25%) average attempts to cure deadly poison. To elaborate, here's another set of values:

• (10000 + (2250 - 7000))/100 = 52.5% <------- 30 Magery
• (10000 + (0 - 7000))/100 = 30% <------- 0 Magery

Essentially, the point that I am trying to make is that the only way to produce values that would fit the description in the guide would require the caster to have nearly zero magery. Given that as the case, we can only conclude three things:

• The guide's description of his own "experience" is drastically incorrect with respect to the number of cure attempts that he needed (an extremely unlikely circumstance given the average chance to cure at any level near 90 skill - or any skill beyond store bought skill).
• The guide's author was lying about his Magery skill (again, equally unlikely because lying in such an outlandish way defeats the purpose of a guide).
• Something changed between the demo and late T2A.

Take what you will from this, but from what I have read, there is a clash of results that is so drastic that it is just too much to chalk up to a poor description on the part of the author.

[Faust]

Kaivan,

Again, we fall back to my original statement... There are several resources to back up the demo formula compared to the one resource(that statement).

Pros 'Support Change'
- Decompiled code for the cure/arch cure spell using the exact formula that OSI used.
- Multiple UOHOC chat logs that states poison was insignificant and easy to cure with the spell.

Niobe - *Eddie* Is there any plan on fixing the cure potions so that the higher cures are needed to cure the higher poisons? Right now lesser cures have a large percentage to cure even deadly, and magic cure can cure all of them way too easily, making poisoning pretty weak.

Glamdring - *Gorbak* When will Poisoning Be improved again?? I mean, I have a Grandmaster Assassan/Alchemist, and when I deadly poison someone, with only 30 magery they can cure on himself themself? Will there be a way for a Fighter/Assassan to make 5th level Poison?

- Post UOR changes that clearly demostrates the change to the cure spell becoming much weaker while the arch cure maintained the same level of effectiveness that it previously used. Not to mention this same "effective" rate is the SAME rate used in the demo. I know just a coincidence, right...
- No patch to support any change from the original introduction of the cure formula.


Cons 'Doesn't Support Change'
- Stratics article written by a non-GM mage that doesn't give precise information related to any formula. "I've had to cast Cure three to four times before eliminating a Deadly Poison in someone's system."

The current state of curing isn't "easily" done at all on the live UOSA server that is stated inside those comments from UOHOC... The comment involving 30 magery on UOSA simply isn't even possible to cure from my testing on the server. I tested deadly poison with the cure spell at 30 magery and EVERY time the poison ended up wearing off. Not to mention the multiple fizzles and interruptions that lay on top of that. Due to the nature of the UOHOC log in September that clearly states curing poison was easy with the spell your time table for the change early on in 1999 isn't really valid... We also can't rely on ONE source that could be horribly mistaken without anything else to back the statement up. That is why multiple sources are typically used when implementing changes like this...

Stratics has been infamous for a number of mistakes in its data from time to time. A great example of this would be the slow cast delays listed for spells. Are we going to take this one piece of information instead of multiple sources that state other wise?

That isn't a logical or smart approach at all...

[Hoots]

Stratics has been infamous for a number of mistakes in its data from time to time. A great example of this would be the slow cast delays listed for spells. Are we going to take this one piece of information instead of multiple sources that state other wise?

That isn't a logical or smart approach at all...

Those essays written on stratics were viewed by thousands upon thousands. If errors popped up they were quickly caught by readers.

At the time, that site was THE site for uo knowledge, facts and info. To discredit this info while other changes are made with stratics essay's being the sole proof seems...what was it...oh yeah...not a logical or smart approach...thanks

I am another who remembers multiple casts to cure Dpoison (specifically on other players/guildies). I played a good amount as a support char in guild wars. Curing DP on yourself was a big problem bc if you failed the cure a couple times combined with the interupts you were screwed.

[Faust]

The slow cast delays using the ( 0.5 * circle ) formula was up on Stratics from the very beginning and several years past AOS... That delay has been proven to be incorrect through several sources including the EA web site. Those articles are actually changed very rarely if ever. There are still articles up on Strtatics from the '98 time period for PVP tactics.

Using Stratics is a great tool without a doubt Hoots... However, you still need to back the information up with multiple sources if possible. This has not been the case for this issue since the system is solely based on a player at that time who wrote that article. I listed multiple players that stated a totally different opinion.

Would you base a curing off of this lone statement here below?

Glamdring - *Gorbak* When will Poisoning Be improved again?? I mean, I have a Grandmaster Assassan/Alchemist, and when I deadly poison someone, with only 30 magery they can cure on himself themself? Will there be a way for a Fighter/Assassan to make 5th level Poison?

No, nobody would be that naive... However, that is what we are doing when we base that one small statement off of Stratics right now for cure. That is why it's very important to use multiple sources when possible. If there was no other information in regard to developing this it would be understandable. This obvioulsy has not been the case though.

[noxmonk]

The level of naivety one would posess to think that all changes were documented I think would be the greater sin.

[Faust]

Funny Nox... You're saying that curing poison alteration would have had to come without any notification of the change. The next one to five years later another mysterious change that was undocumented was also made returning the poison values back to the same level that it held previously 1-5 years before that. Finally, the change made in publish 25(that was documeneted and not as drastic) altered the cure spell(holding the same value used in the demo) making it significantly weaker than it previously was once more. All of this happened without any indication of each change on any web site associated with Ultima Online.

That sounds very logical...

[Faust]

FYI, here is a time frame for the changes related to curing poison...

08/98
The formula(Documented) that was extracted from the demo presented earlier in this thread was active.

10/99 - 12/04
Curing poison was made significantly harder(Undocumented) and later reversed back(Undocumented) to the same values used in 08/98.

01/05
Cure spell was significantly reduced(Documented) and the Arch Cure spell retained the same effective value.


We are seriously going to think there were two drastic undocumented changes to curing poison in 5 years without even one word mentioned on any other site discussing the change?

Yeah, very logical...

[Kraarug]

Code: Select all

1/98 
Interruption updated using magery as a second discount

1/98 - 10/98 
Stealth Ninja update 

10/98
OSI says that the previous update was unbalanced and reverted it out.

There's one case of stealth ninja update.

Code: Select all

1/99 
Instahit bug introduced

2/99 
OSI says they fixed it but they didn't

1/00
OSI fixes it for good

Here's a case of OSI knowing about a bug for years and not doing anything about it.

[Faust]

The interruption code is in fact a "ninja patch", but it was in a time span of a few months during a time period where there was less information in regard to Ultima Online sites like Stratics, UOPowergamers, etc... There is no evidence to support a "ninja patch" in this instance and it's foolish to implement a change based on the prospect of a possible "ninja patch" without hardly any evidence to support it. We are talking about a change that very well occurred during the UOR era even that would have been discussed heavily. Nox mages that hit a DP poison didn't make their opponents cast cure 3-5 times...

Also, the second "ninja patch" that you listed is a fabrication on your part. There is no evidence to support your claim that patch was suppose to fix weapon cycles. That is your sole opinion and your opinion alone.

[tenduil]

Been here about 2 weeks and still think the shard is great.

Most of the patch sounds fine though I have not played in a event yet so do not understand the changes. I will miss checks though I understand.. they were implemented in 2000.

Poisen:
Derrick stated he is taking it mostly off the table for now till it can be re-looked at. I have only one major concern that somebody hit on earlier but has not been talked about:

A player with GM Healing and Anatomy should cure in the same consistancy, or close to it, as that of a GM Mage. It would make no sense for a GM Heal/Anat to take 18ish seconds (or slightly less for dex modifier) to cure a poisen that a GM Mage can cure in 2 seconds; especially when by 18 seconds the player is probably dead from deadly/lethal poisen alone.

I realize a high majority of this shard is magery based yet please don't forget those of us that use bandages.

[ClowN]

Been here about 2 weeks and still think the shard is great.

Most of the patch sounds fine though I have not played in a event yet so do not understand the changes. I will miss checks though I understand.. they were implemented in 2000.

Poisen:
Derrick stated he is taking it mostly off the table for now till it can be re-looked at. I have only one major concern that somebody hit on earlier but has not been talked about:

A player with GM Healing and Anatomy should cure in the same consistancy, or close to it, as that of a GM Mage. It would make no sense for a GM Heal/Anat to take 18ish seconds (or slightly less for dex modifier) to cure a poisen that a GM Mage can cure in 2 seconds; especially when by 18 seconds the player is probably dead from deadly/lethal poisen alone.

I realize a high majority of this shard is magery based yet please don't forget those of us that use bandages.

Dex doesnt actually effect healing at all here. i thought it did in t2a myself but apparently i was wrong because there are numerous sources stating that dex based healing was introduced at the beginning of UOR.

as far as consistancy goes, i usually dont use bandages to cure poison, but i dont seem to ever fail a cure with them when i do at 100 anat 100 heal.

[tenduil]

The time discrepency is mainly what I am referring to.