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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:37 pm 
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Not so much about the patch, but throwing some .02 in about the posting here. I know recently Derrick hammered down on the language in the forum. Judging by the posts in this thread, there is some more hammering to be done.

I know nobody can control how people act on the game, but they are very much 'controllable' on the forums. While complaint posts about the patch aren't really to be placed here, they are only needed to be redirected to the proper forum.

My beef is with the borderline flaming posts which can very easily be interpreted as "If you don't like it: leave". The point of the forums is for discussion and, while complaints can easily sound whiny, this is the nature of those posts. It does not excuse the so-called veterans to taunt them, and tell them they should leave. It is detrimental to the community. It adds nothing of value to the threads. It is flaming and griefing.

Players cannot be forced to play a certain way, but forums can and should be kept in line.

Edit: IRC can also be kept in line. There are infinite ways players can create private channels to communicate under a 'don't join if you don't like it' policy. But people who flame in the main channel should be held accountable the same as if they were posting or causing grief in game.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:25 pm 
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I understand the point of view on cracking down on these types of posts. The last one before yours for example was certainly intended as an accusation of me being disingenuous, and while certainly not true is not censored for a few reasons.

I think it's important to allow people a certain level of passion and rage on these boards, for the most part they are driven by a love for the game, and a desire for this shard to be greater. For example there are a few rage posts in this thread about cartography, and in the end I believe the fire that was lit under this issue was the driving force for Mikel123 to have made the impressive discovery that you actually could GM on world maps in the T2A era. (Subject: Treasure Hunting)

What it really come down to is that players do most of the research around here, and are a strong collaborative force in the development of this shard. The staff does a lot of work too, but we can't match the effort that goes in my the players.

Senseless raging and bickering will likely be moved to a more appropriate place in the forums, but too often have I seen threads of outrage produce positive results when focused on a specific issue, so in my experience a lot of this rage is a positive and productive part of the development process.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Derrick wrote:
poogoblin wrote:
If this is how it was, I am very intrigued on how anyone was ever able to GM this skill...between having to gain so much from "tattered maps". My guess is that the skill gain for decoding 4's and 5's will probably need to be tweaked.

We will be looking at this. There's no need for skill gain on 5's of course because you must be gm to decode, but the level 4 bottleneck will be analyzed. The likely issue here is the inability to gain on failure.


It could be that, or it also could be the % chance to succeed at decoding a level 4 map at 99 Cartography. Right now it seems like it's well over 90% to succeed at decoding a level 4 map on the first try, so consequently the chance to gain is very small.

If it was more like 25% or 10%, the chance to gain would be much higher but the impact on actual treasure hunting would be negligible, since you can attempt to decode it a ton of times in a real short time span.

Also, I'll add... my impression so far, with regards to "making it miserable for players"... this is obviously far from the case. Veterans, the "haves" seem to be quite in favor of changes that make things harder... and understandably so. But as far as what inconsistencies and inaccuracies are fixed... that is 100% a product of individual player research.

If something on this shard doesn't reconcile with your memory, speak up. Derrick wasn't the one who decided we needed to cut bandages one at a time. Some other guy here was (sorry, I forget who). He just mentioned it offhand, he and/or staff found info to corroborate, and thus it was implemented.

If you remember something from actual T2A that we don't have here, be the change you wish to see in the world.* Look it up at archive.org or something.

It's even fun to check out the archives of sites with no aim in mind. Just today, I looked through the old Stratics board posts and found posts I made literally 9 years ago. It's like a time capsule, it's freaking awesome. And you might find some fun stuff about the history of the game too.

* Nelson Mandela, not me :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:33 pm 
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The problem with most people that gripe about things is that they want it both ways. They want the good things out of the t2a era leaving out the bad. However, if that was how things were handled here this wouldn't be a t2a shard than. It would be the same shard re-hashed out just like the rest of them. Ultima Online during all era's have had their fair share of crappy game features. However, that is part of the game and you must take the good with the bad if you want a t2a shard. No one has the right to tell you what was the t2a era deciding what gets added and doesn't when replicating the era. Derrick takes this same approach and it would be no different for me in all honesty. He has stated many times that he does not put himself in a developers seat choosing what is good or bad. History decides what goes into this shard not an individual person(s). The players are only the tools that assist in that process pointing the problems out with information supporting the claims.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:21 pm 
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Derrick wrote:
Senseless raging and bickering will likely be moved to a more appropriate place in the forums, but too often have I seen threads of outrage produce positive results when focused on a specific issue, so in my experience a lot of this rage is a positive and productive part of the development process.


Indeed, Derrick. I agree it does lead to positive things sometimes. Outright banning any kind of rage would be a bad idea. I'm talking about those posts though that do nothing but rage or cause it.

Those posts that insinuate that you should stop playing. Those posts that contain absolutely no content except for the words "Not era accurate." Just think of how many times I could link that happening.

I can't help but notice that the taunting is mostly done by the 'veterans'. While they have contributed to the shard with research and the like, I think its very wrong for them to be able to wave that around like it's their right to be complete jerks because they looked up some random bit of information, or they PvP'd back when the shard was newer. Entitlement from the 'haves' can kill a shard too.

Lastly on a minor note, I looked at the threat about the current cartography standing that World Maps only take you to 98.5... There were only a total of about 5 posts in the thread. There wasn't any counter research to begin with? There wasn't even any thought that this guy might be wrong. He found one line of text and it was implemented. It seems suspicious. I know it'll be fixed soon, but if Mike hadn't decided to go researching, the era accuracy of cartography would be skew because of this one line of text with no fact checking in place.


Last edited by Sum_Mors on Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:32 pm 
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I agree wholeheartedly with this. I certainly wish some players would be a little more sensitive in the forums, often presumptions of ignorance are hurled when the question is just a simple honest question from a new guy not familiar with the shard.

Often posts like these do receive warnings, even when the post itself remains. It gets hard to clean up things after the fact sometimes though, as the conversations continues after, and the offending posters have usually been berated by other players by the time I read the thread. Clearly policy is pretty loose here, and although I'm appalled at a lot of the postings myself it becomes time/benefit to police too much.

Many players however have found themselves unable to post outside the trash talk forums after disregarded warnings.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:36 pm 
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vkamicht wrote:
Derrick wrote:
  • Salute and Bow animations slowed. [forum]


Thanks for this, though they're *too* slow now! I don't know what kind of values RunUO accepts for speed (is it in total time? fps?), but a good reference would be swing speed for lower stamina values. At first I thought it was when stamina was below 100%, but it turns out there's a hard coded number value that when above, animations play 'full speed' (which is far too fast) and elsewhere they play the correct speed (at which all animations, incl. bow and salute, should play at)


Derrick wrote:
I used the demo to match up the animation speed, it seemed ridiculously slow to me too, but we've been watching this fast animation for sometime now, possibly just used to it?


The bow is definitely too slow.

I never tried it before, but I remember back then someone posted that they used to use the bow along with saying words of power about their head and the "xxxxx is attacking you!" message to try to fool people into thinking they were attacking them (this may have been post-T2A, like in 2000, but whatever).

Anyways, the point is, they claimed this worked well because the bow animation was right around the exact length of the pumps of casting a magery spell and so they looked almost identical. So I'd shoot for timing it like that (probably double the speed we currently have). Sorry if this is what it was before, I just remembered this old story about it being the same speed as the magery cast pumps.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:09 am 
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update : still catching sea serpents while gm fisher :)

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:54 am 
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The following additions were made to Patch 117:
  • Treasure Maps are no longer trivial at less than GM cartography.
  • All Player crafted maps trivial skill level is now 100; (Thanks Mikel123)
  • Cartography will gain on failure
  • A compensating reduction in overall cartography gain rate was applied.
  • Horses don't inherit the weight and capacity of their owners
  • All Hirelings now spawn with backpacks
  • Spelling correction "public house" message
  • Trapped doors triggers trap on Use, not on dbl-click, so NPC's and monsters will now set off the traps as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:11 am 
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Ive noticed since this most recent patch that all damage now reduces stamina quite a bit, was this intended as part of the fatigue changes?
If so, where does this put the macing weapon skill? Considering pre-patch when it used to be the only damage type that had the benefit of stamina reduction on targets at 100% hp.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:41 am 
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Aye, the damage of fatigue formula was changed. Bigger hits will have a multiplicative effect on stamina loss. Macing stamina loss was added in Feb '99ish, and takes a few points of stam on every hit, there was no mention of a change to stamina loss on damage when the macing changes were introduced, and to me and others that have commented, the stamina loss looks very correct, especially weighing the loss received from poison ticks.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:20 pm 
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i dont see what the rush is here with releasing so many patches that have a huge affect on gameplay.
i think that the strategy of implementing patches needs to be relaxed, this shard aint going anywhere, why do drastic changes constantly have to be made to the point where its time consuming/frustrating to keep up with all the little details of the game that are being made within pvp and other parts of gameplay (skills)?

for example:
since i joined this shard pvp mechanics have been changed more times than i can remember. thats absurd. change it when u know its right, i mean come on staff, if this shard is gonna last, slow down and stop rushing in the drastic changes that are still not 100% confirmed as era accurate.
i know there is no perfect solution, but i rly think that u guys need to consider the avg player here and how frustrtating/pointless all this is becoming. why get use to this style of pvp currently implemnted if its not gonna last and probably gonna be tweaked and changed again sometime down the road. cant changes be put on the backburner for a while until they are 100% adjusted before they come on the live shard?
all these progression changes are not doing it.

second: i rly dont think the demo of this game has anything to do with the actual t2a era on the osi live shards that we are trying to re create. i mean give me a break pvp changes should not be based on a demo of a game. this pvp is a extermely unbalanced and i beleive that it is due to inaccurate info that comes from multiple sources. u rly think the the t2a demo is a the same as the osi live shards during the t2a? i doubt it. i understand era accuracy is the number one goal. but we might be digging ourselves into a hole.


p.s.
i just want to remind the staff why alot of people quit uo back in the day. it was all the changes that were made. plz do not make the same mistakes that osi did and constantly make changes that negatively affect gameplay.
plz focus on the avg players on the shard and not all the fanatics.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:29 pm 
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monaxe wrote:
plz focus on the avg players on the shard and not all the fanatics.


With 500 people online at any given time, who exactly is the "average" player? What does the "average" player want?

Everyone wants different things out of this shard. You can't cater to everyone.

The only thing we all have in common - every one of us - is that we all want to play UO like it was in 1999. So... all patches and changes are made with the intent of making this shard just like UO in 1999.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:37 pm 
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I do not recall all damage types reducing stamina on targets at 100% hp is all. I do not beleive that was era accurate as far as I remember.
On the other hand, I do recall all damage types reducing stamina when the target falls below 40 or 30% total hp.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch 117 - Oct 3, 2009: Fatigue, Taste ID, Treasure maps...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:10 pm 
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I definitely remember losing stamina on any hit that took off a large amount of HPs. This may be a UO:R memory, but I'm pretty sure it's not because stamina was somewhat irrelevant in Trammel (you could push through anything at any stamina level).

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