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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:04 pm 
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DarkWing wrote:
Derrick wrote:

Changes effective prior to this morning (Catch up):
[list]
[*]Ranger NPC vendors drop arrows


Rangers are Still not Droping Arrows!


Maybe you had to make the npc respawn?

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:58 pm 
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Why exactly did we change hiding to remove your current combatant? Thats not accurate at all......


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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:19 pm 
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Everlynn wrote:
Why exactly did we change hiding to remove your current combatant? Thats not accurate at all......


You wouldn't have a clue... old person!

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:42 pm 
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Everlynn wrote:
Why exactly did we change hiding to remove your current combatant? Thats not accurate at all......

Actually, hiding removing your combatant was something that was introduced in January 1999. Here is the line item from the patch note that explains the changes to hiding from that time:
Quote:
Hiding changes
  • Simply tabbing out of combat will not make it possible to hide. Instead, it will be dependent on line-of-sight to your attackers, and distance from them. The lower your Hiding skill, the farther away you need to get.
  • The delay in using hiding again was removed if you failed hiding because you were in combat.

While this patch note doesn't explicitly state that you will lose your combatant when you hide, in order for the functionality of hiding to remain the same (hidden without a combatant to auto swing against; a state that was previously attained simply by tabbing), the functionality was attached to the actual success of a hide attempt. This is something that slipped through for this long because there was no direct explicit statement about its functionality. However, it was confirmed when tested on live OSI servers and cross-referenced with patch notes that show no major changes to hiding since the functionality change in 99.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Kaivan wrote:
Everlynn wrote:
Why exactly did we change hiding to remove your current combatant? Thats not accurate at all......

Actually, hiding removing your combatant was something that was introduced in January 1999. Here is the line item from the patch note that explains the changes to hiding from that time:
Quote:
Hiding changes
  • Simply tabbing out of combat will not make it possible to hide. Instead, it will be dependent on line-of-sight to your attackers, and distance from them. The lower your Hiding skill, the farther away you need to get.
  • The delay in using hiding again was removed if you failed hiding because you were in combat.

While this patch note doesn't explicitly state that you will lose your combatant when you hide, in order for the functionality of hiding to remain the same (hidden without a combatant to auto swing against; a state that was previously attained simply by tabbing), the functionality was attached to the actual success of a hide attempt. This is something that slipped through for this long because there was no direct explicit statement about its functionality. However, it was confirmed when tested on live OSI servers and cross-referenced with patch notes that show no major changes to hiding since the functionality change in 99.


Did you make that sounds so complex just to shut him up? I didn't understand how any of that proved the patch notes *hidden* meaning of hiding functionality to be correct or not.

So basically you jumped on OSI servers and used hiding, it dropped your combatant and there have not been any changes to hiding since those patch notes you have?

So therefore hiding must have been the same in 1999 as it is now?

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:14 am 
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Alex21 wrote:
Kaivan wrote:
Everlynn wrote:
Why exactly did we change hiding to remove your current combatant? Thats not accurate at all......

Actually, hiding removing your combatant was something that was introduced in January 1999. Here is the line item from the patch note that explains the changes to hiding from that time:
Quote:
Hiding changes
  • Simply tabbing out of combat will not make it possible to hide. Instead, it will be dependent on line-of-sight to your attackers, and distance from them. The lower your Hiding skill, the farther away you need to get.
  • The delay in using hiding again was removed if you failed hiding because you were in combat.

While this patch note doesn't explicitly state that you will lose your combatant when you hide, in order for the functionality of hiding to remain the same (hidden without a combatant to auto swing against; a state that was previously attained simply by tabbing), the functionality was attached to the actual success of a hide attempt. This is something that slipped through for this long because there was no direct explicit statement about its functionality. However, it was confirmed when tested on live OSI servers and cross-referenced with patch notes that show no major changes to hiding since the functionality change in 99.


Did you make that sounds so complex just to shut him up? I didn't understand how any of that proved the patch notes *hidden* meaning of hiding functionality to be correct or not.

So basically you jumped on OSI servers and used hiding, it dropped your combatant and there have not been any changes to hiding since those patch notes you have?

So therefore hiding must have been the same in 1999 as it is now?

Essentially that is the conclusion.

Beyond that, pointing out the lack of any explicit patch note was intended to explain that the end result for hiding after the patch note in 99 was the same as before the patch note. That is, hiding is supposed to hide you from your opponent without you swinging back.

To elaborate, before the patch note you could tab out and hide at any distance. The result? You would be hidden and would not swing back, in such a way that would trivialize the hiding attempt. After the patch, simply tabbing no longer worked. Instead, you would need to fulfill the line of sight and distance checks in order to attempt to hide. Additionally, players needed to be automatically tabbed out in order to provide the same result as before where they would not automatically swing back. Ultimately, the process for how you attempted to hide changed, but the result of actually hiding stayed as it was beforehand, and as you know, this was supported by a live OSI test with a cross-reference to the patch notes.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:46 am 
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its useless this server could never truely be accurate its all just based on random patchnotes from 1999 and test information. There is quite a few things that absolutly are incorrect and will never be changed. Bottom line is the research process if flawed and the people who didn't play in the actual era are the ones with enough time on thier hands to research random crap till they find something that resembles a conclusion to what they are looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:08 pm 
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That patch only removed the ability to tab out and hide when your opponent was next to you making it dependant on line of sight instead of merely having a combatant from that point on.

Those that are trying to say it auto tabbed for you directly after using the skill successfully are wrong.


If the pursuant is looking for you while your are hidden, and they already initiated combat, hit Tab twice to get yourself out of combat mode and turn off Auto-Defend. If you know there is a detective around, you can always ask a Guard where the person is by their name, i.e.: "Guard, where is XXX?" If the guard has seen him or her, he will tell you.


This guide was written using this phrase in the start of the paragraph "How can I avoid those few Detectives/Thief Killers out there?" which may appear insignificant to some. However, when you look at the patch note with the hiding changes it starts to unravel a bit. If auto tabbing existed based on the hiding changes in Jan 19 1999 3:05PM it would seem a bit weird that someone would write a guide using a skill(Detect Hidden) that was patched in Feb 24 1999 1:06PM well over a month after that change.

Again, auto tabbing did no exist because of the hiding changes in January '99 with the tabbing changes and that is a simple fact, period.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:37 pm 
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Everlynn wrote:
its useless this server could never truely be accurate its all just based on random patchnotes from 1999 and test information. There is quite a few things that absolutly are incorrect and will never be changed. Bottom line is the research process if flawed and the people who didn't play in the actual era are the ones with enough time on thier hands to research random crap till they find something that resembles a conclusion to what they are looking for.

You are part of the development process Everlynn, as is everyone that participates in these threads. If you feel it's wrong it's not a closed case, so while we have many unclosed cases we also have no one, player or staff around here that's wearing an "I'm Always Right" badge. This shard has been in development for almost three years now, and we still don't have it all down, but I'm sure we're closer than anyone else has ever come in total, and it's only been possible through the productive input of hundreds of players.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:10 pm 
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Everlynn wrote:
i think something is wrong but i have no evidence and i think people with evidence are wrong despite the evidence they have. patch notes are just random crap all they did was make official notes of the changes they are implement but they were wrong and i know because i can remember with my mind the details of a game i haven't played in ten years.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:09 am 
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Faust wrote:
That patch only removed the ability to tab out and hide when your opponent was next to you making it dependant on line of sight instead of merely having a combatant from that point on.

Those that are trying to say it auto tabbed for you directly after using the skill successfully are wrong.


If the pursuant is looking for you while your are hidden, and they already initiated combat, hit Tab twice to get yourself out of combat mode and turn off Auto-Defend. If you know there is a detective around, you can always ask a Guard where the person is by their name, i.e.: "Guard, where is XXX?" If the guard has seen him or her, he will tell you.


This guide was written using this phrase in the start of the paragraph "How can I avoid those few Detectives/Thief Killers out there?" which may appear insignificant to some. However, when you look at the patch note with the hiding changes it starts to unravel a bit. If auto tabbing existed based on the hiding changes in Jan 19 1999 3:05PM it would seem a bit weird that someone would write a guide using a skill(Detect Hidden) that was patched in Feb 24 1999 1:06PM well over a month after that change.

Again, auto tabbing did no exist because of the hiding changes in January '99 with the tabbing changes and that is a simple fact, period.


There are two observations/points that I would like to make:

First, the practice of playing a detective/thief killer is something that did not begin right after the February 24th 1999 patch. Detectives existed before that time, and the changes to detecting hidden were a pragmatic and expected change in order to enhance the skill; none of which had any bearing on the effectiveness of a detective against a thief. As a result, it isn't really an effective stance to suggest that detective thieves only existed after the changes of February 99.

Second, the guide from stratics is clearly a UOR guide (clear mention of power hour which was a function of UOR). If we search for patch notes related to hiding, both through the old search function and the new search function, we can see that there were no patch notes that speak of a change to the hiding skill throughout the entirety of UOR. In fact, there have been no direct changes to hiding since the introduction of the January 1999 patch (only changes to skills that don't work or automatically reveal you when you use them while hidden were made) . Given that information, it is reasonably safe to assume that the function of the hiding skill on live OSI servers is the same as it was during UOR (when the guide was written), and post-January T2A. Based on that premise, hiding was checked on live OSI servers to determine whether hiding while in war mode or auto defending against an attacker would have an effect. The result was an automatic loss of combatant once the player was hidden.

-----------

Given the evidence presented above, and some other information I've been able to scrounge up, there seems that all of the guide information is at at odds with the information presented by the live servers.

To see the information that I have found, follow these links:
1/27/2000 Archive of Stratics Detective Essay (See section labeled 'Now the fun begins.)
2/29/2000 Archive of the Hiding Skill from the UO Guide
8/31/2000 Archive of Stratics Detective Essay (Same information as above)
Archive of the 8/22/2001 Stratics Stealing FAQ (The source of the Updated Detective Essay info)
4/5/2002 Archive of the Detective Essay(earliest archived source of Faust's archived information)
Current UO Guide information on Hiding(Last updated 3/26/2009)

In each of these instances, right up until the most recent information, the suggestions point out that you needed distance as well as a tab/leave combat in order to fully achieve a hiding attempt, yet all of this information is at odds with the current functionality of hiding on live servers which has no patch note updating the direct function of the skill after the change in January 1999.

For all concerned, take this information into consideration against the current functions on live servers and investigate further if you are interested.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:32 am 
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I don't see any valid reason for such an unnecessary change until its implementation into the production shards has been pin pointed. This is the first time that I have ever even heard of such a thing existing in Ultima Online and that's saying a lot since there other oddball things such as licking dogs with healing spit that heal you added in the game later on. I may have never played very much after the UOR publish but even up to that point I don't ever recall this even when moongates started automatically hiding you forcing an auto tab. I highly doubt this was implemented during this patch and actually pretty confident that this patch didn't in fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:28 am 
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Lil mini patch in the morning:
  • GiantSpiders will no longer open doors. [Thread]
  • Most creatures, NPC's, and Shield Guards will no longer heal and cure.[Thread]

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 122 - Jan 11, 2010: Catch up.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:02 am 
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what about Rangers and the Arrow Drops on death?

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