Patch 68 - Oct. 31, 2008:Halloween, Parry, NPC Vendors, more

[Faust]

A function that was changed to how it worked during the era we're trying to replicate. Why in the world would anyone do that adminstrating a t2a shard...

On another note. If it was up to me implementing this feature I would have went further. This change allows you to be able to sell stacked items unlike you could back then. The "5 item" limit counted for each item in the stack also. So you could have sold stacked items but only 5 at a time.

[McTavish]

A function that was changed to how it worked during the era we're trying to replicate. Why in the world would anyone do that adminstrating a t2a shard...

On another note. If it was up to me implementing this feature I would have went further. This change allows you to be able to sell stacked items unlike you could back then. The "5 item" limit counted for each item in the stack also. So you could have sold stacked items but only 5 at a time.

But you're not being completely accurate. You're picking and choosing. There were no daily/nightly events during that era. How come you're not stopping those? Also, I quit UO after about a year or so of T2A so I don't remember all the detail but I don't ever remember gaining skill meditation passively.

I don't want you to take away events, I just think that some of these changes are below the threshold of common sense.

Why would you change something in game so that I had to implement it via an external macro program? To me that's almost beyond comprehension.

[chumbucket]

I too am upset. The staff here do things I don't like. I wanted a big house, but they made it hard to get gold. I had to go out and kill things (or steal). I wanted it in my pack when I log in. They made changes to fit their vision of the shard. It made my UO time not exactly as I would want it.

They claim that because they pay for the shard and put their own time in to developing it that should be allowed to do what they want with it. They also claim that we are not allowed to offer constructive suggestions such as "WTF OMG I HATE IT OMG FAUST IS GAY OMG." Frankly, I am sick of people thinking that just because they own some computers and put their own time in to things that they can do what they want with those computers. I demand more bang for my buck! I'm sick of being forced to play this shard that other people own when they don't make it exactly as I demand it be. I would also like to point out that Maahes is a newb. I killed him with a shepherd's crook. There. I said it.

[chumbucket]

OK. Here's a serious thought: When I first came to this shard, I was extremely skeptical of some of the policies. It seemed to me that some things ought to be changed even if the changes wouldn't be era accurate. But I think now that quite often at least that was wrong. Part of the reason this shard is the best shard I have ever played is because it really does keep the overall feel of the old days. Yes, some times the old days has annoying bits. Yes, some changes and additions from the old days were neat. (More kinds of monsters, for instance.) But every little addition waters down the feeling of T2A. So while I still think there might be changes that could be made without hurting things, I'm much more cautious when coming to that conclusion in particular cases now. Derrick et al have shown extremely good judgment in these matters. They take a hard line on era accuracy, but anything less may result in the shard not being the shard. So if you want to offer criticism, first (and this should be obvious) do it constructively. These guys work for no money whatsoever and I suspect at some cost to themselves, so that you can have a T2A shard to play on. I'm certain they welcome useful feedback. I'm also certain that don't welcome whining and personal attacks. Second, be cautious in your criticisms, even the constructive ones, because these guys have proven that they know what they're doing.*

*Even though Maahes is a newb that I killed with a shepherd's crook.

[McTavish]

I'm not arguing with the philosophy of accuracy. The reason I play here is because accuracy is held in high esteem. However, there is a threshold where implementing a change alters the gaming experience detrimentally. The process for change should be analysed for its impact on the gaming experience. Chumbucket, you talk of additions. I don't talk of additions I'm talking about changes to the existing gaming functionality that have reduced playability. Quite simply, in real life people build replica classic cars. If the car had a design flaw in the original that endangered peoples lives, e.g. no seat belts then when people build replicas they install seat belts. Does that make the car any less authentic? Does it take away from the car's driving experience? No, the car has retained its classic shape, its engine, its feel; it's just that they've recognised flaws in the original and they've fixed it.

My feeling at the moment is that we're doing the opposite. If you like, we're removing the seat belts because it's not authentic i.e. dangerous like the original. As I said before, common sense should prevail in deciding if a change is necessary. My personal opinion is that Faust does not exercise common sense.

OK. Here's a serious thought: When I first came to this shard, I was extremely skeptical of some of the policies. It seemed to me that some things ought to be changed even if the changes wouldn't be era accurate. But I think now that quite often at least that was wrong. Part of the reason this shard is the best shard I have ever played is because it really does keep the overall feel of the old days. Yes, some times the old days has annoying bits. Yes, some changes and additions from the old days were neat. (More kinds of monsters, for instance.) But every little addition waters down the feeling of T2A. So while I still think there might be changes that could be made without hurting things, I'm much more cautious when coming to that conclusion in particular cases now. Derrick et al have shown extremely good judgment in these matters. They take a hard line on era accuracy, but anything less may result in the shard not being the shard. So if you want to offer criticism, first (and this should be obvious) do it constructively. These guys work for no money whatsoever and I suspect at some cost to themselves, so that you can have a T2A shard to play on. I'm certain they welcome useful feedback. I'm also certain that don't welcome whining and personal attacks. Second, be cautious in your criticisms, even the constructive ones, because these guys have proven that they know what they're doing.*

*Even though Maahes is a newb that I killed with a shepherd's crook.

[Faust]

What gives you a right over anyone else what is "common" sense McTavin? You are not the one paying $200 a month for a server so that a bunch of people can play a game for free. Derrick and the rest of us are offering you an original experience to what the game used to be like. We are not offering a "cookie cutter" t2a shard like it clearly states on the main page. We are offering the real deal. Yes, there will be changes that you hate. Yes, there are changes that I admittedly hate. However, every single ONE of those changes that I hate I also love because it gives me that nostalgic feeling that has been lost for over 8 years now. The events that we offer are MORE advanced events that Derrick has generously provided. There was events that existed back in the old days, however the technology simply did not exist. We have simply amplified it to a much more enjoyable degree.

The part that saddens me the most is how spoiled a lot of people has become to the later era's and other player ran shards. Do you not realize the distro package for RunUO is an EXACT mimic of the modern EA servers? We have to go in and break the code down on every single file, method, and function. There are well over a million lines of code. Unlike most programming projects we have to work backwards instead of forward. It is not an easy task at all. Many of the features that we change are current features that the modern EA servers have since the distro package is exactly that. Many people will get use to many of these modern features and get spoiled. We don't make the changes to intentionally ruin your life. We make them for the better of the shard towards that ultimate goal, which is to be the best and most accurate t2a shard in existance.

[StDrahcir]

• NPC vendor sales now limited to 5 items at a time. This is era accurate and was required to fix a problem with pricing. You can use the sell agent in razor to sell many items more quickly.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think the logic behind this (even though I do not like it as its annoying as hell) is that it gives the NPC's the ability to adjust the sell back price based on the amount they have stocked. So instead of you being able to sell 10 axes all for 30 gold each. You'll be able to sell 5 at 30gp and then since the NPC decides (based on some formulas and whatever) that your next sell to him will be overstock he will then buy it at 28gp each for example. With the old system you would sell all 10 at 30gp and move on.

Sure I think its annoying as all hell to have to sell things 5 at a time, but it does provide some more economy stability.

Am I wrong Derrick/Faust or is this part of the logic?

[Mens Rea]

Dear Faust,

I too am a well established UO enthusiast. I know not of thee, but from my experiences you are a reasonable person and a good programmer. The T2A accurate menus are great (except when removing people from the ban list, the menu should return to the remove people from ban list menu).

Aside from my niggley little issue, in this vast array of UO shard knowledge I have accumulated I have some advice for you. It is very simple, and will make you the better man-

Don't get involved in shit slinging

Let people rant and moan, it's not a good look to be giving it back ^^

[Derrick]

StDrahcir, aye, they problem was related to this. Not wanting to get into the details, but there is still some work that needs to be done on the vendor pricing system. Reducing the amount to 5 was necessary as apart of the fix to the algorithm which sets the prices. A more thorough and reliable system for vendor pricing is forthcoming as well as a correction to most commodity prices based on the price charts available on the era archived stratics pages.

Mens Rea, thanks. We'll get that ban menu fixed as soon as possible.

[McTavish]

What gives you a right over anyone else what is "common" sense McTavin?

The part that saddens me the most is how spoiled a lot of people has become to the later era's and other player ran shards.

I have no unique claim to common sense, for it's exactly that common, i.e. that which is the most practical and sensible solution or method arrived at by most people of sound mind.

I have apologised to derrick for calling the change stupid now that I understand why it was changed. I can also understand why derrick didn't ellaborate on the necessity for the change in the original patch message. However, I noted that you suggested that the change was a gold sink, which combined with the lack of information from the original patch note led me to believe that this change was not a mandatory requirement but a tweak for nothing other than era accuracy which I felt was making game play worse for no good reason.

Secondly, i quit UO the first time round because of the reason you detest (which I also can't stand). I.e. wrapping the game in cotton wool. I'm not asking to make the game easy.

Thanks for all your hard work. Maybe I complain because I do care; in future I will attenuate comments.

[leterrien]

Being only able to sell 5 things at a time... wow, now THAT brings back the T2A memories. I remember being a newB tailor and having to run all around the world to sell all the fancy shirts, robes, dresses, skullcaps etc that I had made. Things like this are exactly what makes this server "second age", and I applaud the staff for implementing it, and not taking the easy way out. Varying vendor prices were very important during the era, and this is an important first step in getting vendors' pricing correctly. I remember that horses were not always a flat 550gp. The price varied from 600ish to 900ish, depending on where you were buying, and in retrospect, probably on the number of horses being sold from that particular stable master.

I think that changing bandages to the way it was would be a great idea. Personally I do not remember much about bandages from back in the day. I certainly do not hold any horrid memories of being so peeved at having to individually cut each 'aid. I do remember that people used to sell them on their player vendors. If it is too much of a pain to make a razor macro to cut up some bandages overnight, this might add more opportunities for a player based economy. It is these little things that make the era what it was. It would also take care of those annoying times when you accidentally turn the entire pile of 5000 cloth to bandages.


In the end, I do not think that adding things like this is "unnecessary" or "pointless" or going "against common sense" at all. As what has been already stated, changes like this, although they may seem to be a "nuisance", they are in fact very real aspects of playing UO during T2A, and as Faust has pointed out, you really are just being spoiled if you do not include them. Without things like this it just does not feel the same, and that is what we are aiming for right?


As for the events, I am kinda split on them. Sure there were a few events during the era, and technology has made it so that we can do this several times a day. Also, the events are trying to take the place of "clean up Brittania", with the trophy reward system. I do have concerns about if it is a positive thing for the economy, and about people not playing in the field as much if they can get their fix multiple times a day without the risk. Those seem to be the "inaccurate" side effects to me.

/end wall-o-text

[Ezp]

People needs to accept the correct changes for good or bad. If its the way it was, its the way it should be imo. I took criticism about my spawnings Ironicly it was McTavish

[Kharza]

You want to know why they did this? Because you could scam the living fuck out of the NPC vendors to make cash because they would buy in lots of 50. Let me give you a little example I've used over the last few days until they patched for 5 item selling.

I was always a scribe.. loved being a scribe.. decided to spin up a scribe. Now it WAS era accurate to be able to make money selling scrolls to NPC vendors. What was NOT era accurate was to be able to make 22k per 1000 scrolls selling to an NPC vendor (oh and btw with Razor you can make 1000 scrolls in a heartbeat). So while I slept.. while I worked.. my poor scribe did nothing but scribe and scribe and scribe all day long. I had another character keep his blank scrolls and regs stocked up and recall around selling the scrolls he made. Let's do some math for the slow people..

Energy Bolt or Reveal (Reveal was the hot money ticket back in the day). Cost to make 13g (8g regs, 5g blank), Sell Price to NPC Vendor.. 35g so that is 22g PROFIT per scroll. Now mind you when you get to GM inscribing you never fail on 6ths.. so 1000/1000 scrolls so 22g * 1000 scrolls = 22k PROFIT. For pretty much doing nothing but setting up a Razor macro and constantly recalling around buying supplies and selling scrolls. Now before this change I only had to go to 2-3 different mage shops to be able to unload all my scrolls because they bought in batches of 50.. shit I was getting checks from vendors for 2k selling flamestrike scrolls. I had tripled my initial 20k liquid capital in around 36h of doing this.

NOW.. Derrick and company.. it was Era accurate for scribes to be able to sell their scrolls to an NPC vendor and make money.. go to the scribing page I linked in the inscription thread.. you can see the profit rates selling to NPC vendors. This selling in batches of 5's seems to be much closer to the way it used to be. Don't kill selling to NPC vendors because I built a scribe on Pacific back in the day doing exactly that.. but yes I'll give you that the prior system was way out of balance.. to bad I didn't catch this when I first joined the shard...

Khar

[Derrick]

Aye Kharza. This was a big part of the problem. Crafting can be a profit center and is a big part of the game. The amount of money being made on this was entirely due to a bug in the system, the quoted value of what you were selling was way less than what you were actually being paid.

There is some work to do on the NPC vendor system yet, but crafting and selling to vendors if not something we would squash, only the extremely inaccurate and also inconsistent profit that was being made.

[Kharza]

While you are at it.. you realize there is a something seriously fucked up with passive magery gains on inscription right? My scribe went from 0 scribing to gm and got 96.0 magery in the process.. the absolutely comical part about this.. he has NEVER cast a single spell since I created him. Trust me I lived as a scribe on Pacific and there is no way you got this much passive magery scribing. It is almost like when you attempt to scribe the spell it is also doing a normal magery check to cast and giving you the gains that way.

So GM scribing.. 96.0 magery and he MADE 50k getting to GM.. that is seriously broke.