Patch 99 - April 23, 2009 - Last double digit patch.

[Kraarug]

When you record a video breaking the speed down to 7/100 of a second you can easily see how long the wrestling speed is. The values that were produced WAS in the same area as the RunUO default of 35. I would prefer trusting a demo that utilized the same weapon table that we use here compared to a decade later Stratics source that changed combat damage/speeds radically and substantially after the AOS expansion was released... For all we know is that wrestling speed could have been increased to allow those stupid special moves to happen to be on par with the rest of the weapons.

THe problem with the demo is that it is Pre-T2A and the changes made to these timers (with the addition of an disarm timer) we are talking about are rather significant.

I think the fact that the wrestling 'weapon' speed being missing speaks volumes. I think the developers knew that there was something there that they couldn't address.

That something? I believe is your faster hally whack.

I think after the bug fix of 2.26.99 they disallowed a wresteling refresh of <2.0 seconds but the 25 stamina refresh was on the order of about 2.4 to 2.5 seconds and that would allow for your fast hally whack. That would have to be only possible with a speed of 50.

[Faust]

You are still missing the simple fact that it COULD not be based off of wrestling... You had to cycle a weapon to start the process. When someone RUNS up to you and makes you wrestle your timer begins immediately... This means that you can sit there and wait that small wrestling timer out and swing again. This was not the way it worked during the era.

Wrestling Basis: 2.5 Timer
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2.5 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle 2.5 seconds
wait 2.5 seconds, equip hally

Non-Wrestling Basis: 2s Disarm Delay
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle - 3.5 seconds
wait - 3.5 seconds, equip hally <-- Difference ONE second

Do you not understand the difference? You CLEARLY get a one second head start when someone makes you wrestle compared to the way it actually worked... The point in making someone wrestle was to waste their cycle... and get a jump start on your own. However, if you RUN up and WASTE your opponents weapon cycle their cycle starts IMMEDIATELY being based on wrestling... This means that you have to get away from your opponent slowing your cycle down greatly and by the time you're about to finish your cycle your opponents is ready and he's already on top of you... Again, the point was to WASTE their cycle and get a JUMP on your own. This makes the counter tactic making your opponent wrestle utterly USELESS as previously stated.

By using the correct system you would have to wait an extra 1 second "or" recycle your weapon, but by the time either of those two scenarios elapsed your cycle will be well on its way to being finished. Removing the only counter tactic for a hally that can be cycled so quickly hurts PVP horribly... The pvp comes down to redundant hits on WHO can dish out the highest hally hit, not who can control the situation the best between using both functions. What else do you expect to happen when the counter tactic is no longer a viable option... It comes down to who can cycle their weapons the best and who dishes out the most damage. In other words the PVP is simply ruined and completely luck based.

This is WHY wrestling was not the cause for this feature... Wrestling simply does not re-create this feature and it's quite obvious when you actually get down to experiencing it. Also, the inconsistancies with the "feel" or "experience" isn't even including the inconsistancies with changing the wrestling timer that is completely inaccurate to the era in itself...

I just don't know why this concept is so hard for some people to understand it...

[Orsi]

Faust, people can't understand your logic because it's so convoluted with random scenarios and numbers that only YOU can understand them. If you'd like, continue the topic here http://forum.uosecondage.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6798.

[Kraarug]

You are still missing the simple fact that it COULD not be based off of wrestling... You had to cycle a weapon to start the process. When someone RUNS up to you and makes you wrestle your timer begins immediately... This means that you can sit there and wait that small wrestling timer out and swing again. This was not the way it worked during the era.

Wrestling Basis: 2.5 Timer
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2.5 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle 2.5 seconds
wait 2.5 seconds, equip hally

Non-Wrestling Basis: 2s Disarm Delay
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle - 3.5 seconds
wait - 3.5 seconds, equip hally <-- Difference ONE second

Do you not understand the difference? You CLEARLY get a one second head start when someone makes you wrestle compared to the way it actually worked... The point in making someone wrestle was to waste their cycle... and get a jump start on your own. However, if you RUN up and WASTE your opponents weapon cycle their cycle starts IMMEDIATELY being based on wrestling... This means that you have to get away from your opponent slowing your cycle down greatly and by the time you're about to finish your cycle your opponents is ready and he's already on top of you... Again, the point was to WASTE their cycle and get a JUMP on your own. This makes the counter tactic making your opponent wrestle utterly USELESS as previously stated.

By using the correct system you would have to wait an extra 1 second "or" recycle your weapon, but by the time either of those two scenarios elapsed your cycle will be well on its way to being finished. Removing the only counter tactic for a hally that can be cycled so quickly hurts PVP horribly... The pvp comes down to redundant hits on WHO can dish out the highest hally hit, not who can control the situation the best between using both functions. What else do you expect to happen when the counter tactic is no longer a viable option... It comes down to who can cycle their weapons the best and who dishes out the most damage. In other words the PVP is simply ruined and completely luck based.

This is WHY wrestling was not the cause for this feature...

I don't know why it's so hard for anyone to understand this.

I've got to look at what you are saying but keep in mind, When you Unequip a weapon you Equip wresteling and thus the previous timer is canceled and the wrestling timer begins.

If you equip before that timer is done... then the timer is canceled and you restart with the new weapon.

I've got to prepare something for transplant, i'll be back to think about your scenario.

Wrestling Basis: 25 Stamina, 50 Speed = 2.5 Timer
hally swing - start 5 second hally timer (25 Stamina, 25 Speed)
unequip - STOP 5 second hally timer, start 2.5 second wrestling timer.
...

[Faust]

Yes, please respond in the thread that Scythe posted... I replied to your response in that thread Cortez. This thread should be about the patch and changes on test center nothing else.

[Apok]

Yes, please respond in the thread that Scythe posted... I replied to your response in that thread Cortez. This thread should be about the patch and changes on test center nothing else.

Ok it makes sense now. you guys are off on a different subject here. very hard to follow. This is patch note 99 lets keep it on track here.

[malice-tg]

The disarm delay has been changed somewhat... You have to wait about an extra delay on the current test center. This change is entirely wrong and the point of the change is to modify the delay to work the way it was, but remove the exploit that Razor and the client can perform being able to manipulate the timer. In other words the macro/exploit that I created that is completely legal but inaccurate will hopefully be fixed.. Derrick and I have been trying to develop a way to remove it entirely. However, the timer right now is way too long that was implemented... I developed a much better counter measure and submitted it to Derrick last night. Hopefully it goes into the test center real soon.

The point of the auto defend throttle isn't to remove the capacity to make someone auto defend but instead remove the ability to spam it. The tab throttle works by catching the event action and if so many are called in a specific period of time it times out for 2 seconds. If you apply this to auto defend now it would help tremendously. Timing out auto defend even for a moment is better than never... The variables for the amount of the events called and the timeout can be whatever deemed necessary.

Also, the swing speed formula is "15000 / ( stam + 100 ) * weapon speed" for combat. A hally has a speed of 25 in the table. Hallys can swing every 4.8 seconds(5 if based on ticks when fixed) at 25 stamina. This will shift slightly for obvious reasons when you begin to lose stamina. The slowest possible speed a hally can swing is every 6 seconds.

are you saying if you hit tab alot that auto defend stops working for two seconds?

if so thats not accurate or neccessary... otherwise i dont understand whats meant to be timing out.


i think packet throttle is fine for everything equally.. singling out this attack last stuff because people dont seem to like it doesnt seem in the spirit of accuracy.

[malice-tg]

The goal in my view is to keep the same 2 second timer with a slight modification to the point of always being able to have a swing ready after casting a sixth circle spell like with the 2 sec disarm delay. I have done some pretty extensive testing with weapon cycles at 0 ping that pretty much allows you to get a swing ready anywhere from 2-2.5 seconds. This time frame is only 1 to 2 ticks in the confines of being able to refresh a hally after casting an ebolt due to lag, delays, etc... However, the change in test center right now is way off... It gives around a 2.5-3.0 second delay, which does not allow a swing to be ready after a sixth circle spell.

The change/proposal that I have sent to Derrick takes into consideration of your stamina inside of those confines that allows you to get a swing always after a sixth circle spell. What this essentially means is that you can still get a swing after casting an ebolt, but with the fluctuating stamina during combat it will be impossible to set a perfect delay using Razor or the client to exploit the disarm delay using one of those macros that I evented that people thinks are so gimp.

I hope he really considers my proposal instead of what is in tc right now... I agree completely that making the disarm delay longer is a very bad move...

ya i would agree the swing timer is fine.. and the method faust is refering to has a built in auto defend / attack last counter measure. so i dont see the need to change the swings.

if you change the auto defend to try to accomodate the swings.. your kinda going ass backwards to fix something that isnt broken

[Black&Blue]

Any idea of when the re-cast delays will be straightened out?

[Derrick]

We've got something on test center right now that I belive is getting close to final.

[Finesse]

now youve fixxed the bugs its much better but its still off .

[Faust]

What is wrong at the moment Finesse?

I still haven't had a chance to test any of it...

[Finesse]

well the wep timer one i give up with its obviously not gonna change.

theres no insta hit on test today for some reason
and the fast cast timer is pointless as you can force two spells as fast as casting them defeating any purpose of fast cast it should be set at 1.5 seconds

[Faust]

The weapon change should be the most crucial aspect that should go back to the way it was before... This change will utterly ruin pvp into the ground in a matter of weeks. Hally mages will no longer exist since they will be completely useless. I copied the current skill distribution statistics yesterday just incase this change doesn't get corrected to prove how drastically the current gm swords characters will switch over to macing after this patch.

I don't quite understand what you are talking about surrounding the fast cast part of your comment though.

Would you please elaborate a little further on that?

[Finesse]

the current fc hold is far to big thats all im saying is it needs lowered.

and faust im glad someone finaly understands what im saying INSTA HIT did clearly not work on the weapons speed the whole reason people played hally mages is because the weapon did the most damage in the same time frame as any other.