Patch 101 - May 14, 2009: Spell recovery time

[BloodyBandage]

Staff just pulled an epic win, solidifying what could be a culmination of almost 2 years of tweaking, researching and testing and all you can manage to do is talk about the runebook weight? Faust is right; go ahead and mark off all your spots and put them in your "safe" runebook. What happens when you die? That's right, it's not the 500gp that was a pain in the ass, but marking off all the spots and putting them back in your book until you die again. Runebooks aren't blessed, and I think you are confusing the two. People won't carry runebooks when they are farming, and if they do, they are prepared and know the consequences of dying - losing all their marked runes as well as giving out their favorite spots to the guy who killed them (talk about future grief). I'm macroing on an almost finished char now but look forward to playing with this new pvp system.

[Clark_Kent]

That's missing our point BloodyBandage, to oversimply my post, since I'm assuming you didn't read it: it's a targeted nerf of a skill set, and I believe it will have unintended consequences in the player economy.

[EVeee]

The way I see it with the runebooks, you took out the easy win for tekai and now he's mad, but it wasn't a bad thing. As pointed out in another thread, stealing is already beaucoup easier here than back in the good old days because of Steal-Object-By-Type - I don't need it or want it any easier than it already is. I looted a house TODAY without a runebook or a rune and I used to do it plenty back in the old days too. I'd camp outside people's houses for hours over the course of several days watching their habits, learning when they were on and what they did, and most of the time just stealthing in right behind them and cleaning house once they logged or recalled. Today I followed someone home through a gate, through their table wall, and cleaned out three chests while four people were macroing inside. So don't say it's not possible to house loot anymore. Easily over half the homes on this shard have no house security and are vulnerable to any stealther with any patience at all.

If someone doesn't want to house loot anymore because it will require slightly more work now that runebooks are harder (not impossible) to steal, that's up to them but I think that's a comment on the player more than it is a comment on the shard.

[Clark_Kent]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but please reread the argument against this change EVeee. I already outlined why this will have little to no effect on house looting. That isn't what is at risk by this change.

[EVeee]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but please reread the argument against this change EVeee. I already outlined why this will have little to no effect on house looting. That isn't what is at risk by this change.

I think I addressed some points other than your own, Clark. And unless I misunderstand completely, we seem to be in agreement - that the runebook change will have very little overall effect outside of pissing off some thieves and possibly raising runebook prices.

I also want to back you up, Faust. I always carry my runebook. It is never in my pack. And it is easy to have flawless house security in any size house. Here's to the paranoid few - Cheers

[MatronDeWinter]

BloodyBandage,
The point isnt oversight, we are not overlooking the fact that the staff put in great amounts of time to adjust and "tweak" as you say, the game to get it into what it is. Thats great, I'm glad that the PvP changes are made, I am also thankfull for the era-accurate potions, great stuff. But to bring up any of that, or insist that we are ungreatfully badgering because of one little chance is incorrect. I honestly could care less about the PvP changes, I'm glad they are "correct", but they do not in any way effect my playstyle for the most part. Think of it this way, suppose tomarrow there were several changes that bettered the thief template, placing it into a more accurate setting. Thats great right? Accuracy! But one small note, there was a change to the hally timer and the 2-4 second wait based on stamina is now a 9 second wait. PvPers would flip out! But suppose it's accurate! Most people contesting this argument would be firing up the forums with hate posts, ignoring the fact that the staff put in such great work tweaking things that do not effect their template.

Ok, so runebooks are "accurate"? Then in no particular order, where are my...
Item bless deeds (and CbD's used to even be all over the place)
Bank Checks? Whats a bank check??
Enticement? It's seriously throttled and you cant re-entice (big NERF)
Herding? You cant herd dragons here????
Secure trading? I dont understand?
House and Animal trade gumps?? (You mean I cant sell my pet "a house" anymore?)

There is a WHOLE slew of intentionally left out "accurate" items. More than I could possibly list here, and it's true, the above list may not be correct, because I did not fact-check it. I'm taking my agenda to change things one at a time, with research.

The problem with this argument is that in the "spirit" of T2A, there should be no rumebooks. if we are emulating the 99' era then Moonstones should be falling from orcs and we should be prepping for UO:R. But we are not. Everyone is going to agree with this runebook change, except for those who play thieves, and by play, I mean actually play. Not the "yes I have a thief character" guys, the people who actually take pleasure in stealing, which is probably the smallest minority of players, we may even be outnumbered by the roleplayers. Your not a thief? and theres a change to make thieving harder? Of course your going to agree with it.

We arent stealing from the trade window here, nobody is outrunning the guards, and we certainly arent duping gold at the Trinsic-Jungle/Delucia cave, so throw era-accuracy out the window for the sake of the argument. Everyone, and I mean everyone here, has some experience, there is rarely any, "catching someone offguard", and everyone knows how to secure trade. There is no mass rares trading to steal from going on at any bank, unless a big trade consists of 8 people macroing magery and alchemy. The chances for a thief here are extremely limited, I play with the same 15 people or so everyday, there is no suprise stealing, and let's face it... Everyone knows all the disguise kit names.

Judging one argument on the grounds that we are the opposite of handicapped because apparently it's so easy to house-loot. I mean, Evee houseloots all day right? (probably not). Bottom line is, this does severely effect a specific skillset, and with no disrespect to the staff, and certainly no remorse for the other changes made, the thief-community stronly contests this one change. We arent griefing, the fact that some people bring up grief and stealing in the same sentance is a misnomer. This IS a legitimate play-style, face it. I am sure you get just as angry over someone Player-Killing you as you do having your belongings taken, but that is the game, and slowely eliminating each sense of adventure and insecurity does not add to the fun of the game. If that were true, you would be playing OSI right now.

It's a shame alot of you never had the chance to play Real pre-UO:R T2A, because you think this is greifing? You have no idea what people were up to back in the day.

[EVeee]

The funny thing is I don't even have a thief character on here yet but I've stealthed in and stolen from a rather well-known guild's tower and a packed small in two consecutive days. Whether you believe me or not, De Winter, is irrelevant - reality doesn't require your belief in it. It's not only possible, it's easy, and I only started trying two days ago and got two scores already.

I totally disagree with De Winter and tekai on this. My experience aside, I think their argument is like saying that you can't PK effectively unless someone runs right up to you without magic reflect on. And as a thief (of sorts) myself, I like a challenge - it makes the score so much sweeter - and can't believe that any thief worth the title wouldn't feel the same way.

For those interested, I'll post pictures of my lootings too. Not to prove anything, just to share the joy, maybe give you a laugh.

[MatronDeWinter]

The funny thing is I don't even have a thief character on here yet but I've stealthed in and stolen from a rather well-known guild's tower and a packed small in two consecutive days. Whether you believe me or not, De Winter, is irrelevant - reality doesn't require your belief in it. It's not only possible, it's easy, and I only started trying two days ago and got two scores already.

I totally disagree with De Winter and tekai on this. My experience aside, I think their argument is like saying that you can't PK effectively unless someone runs right up to you without magic reflect on. And as a thief (of sorts) myself, I like a challenge - it makes the score so much sweeter - and can't believe that any thief worth the title wouldn't feel the same way.

For those interested, I'll post pictures of my lootings too. Not to prove anything, just to share the joy, maybe give you a laugh.

Nobody is doubting your possibly lucky occurance in your first few days here, and your logic that the handicap makes the game more challenging is really making me laugh. Especially considering you already stated that you do not have a thief. When PvP was all whacked, nobody said "Well, this nerfs my tank mage, but I enjoy the challenge".

[EVeee]

When PvP was all whacked, nobody said "Well, this nerfs my tank mage, but I enjoy the challenge".

It's not a nerf. It's one closed avenue of many. Also happens to be the easiest. And runebooks are still stealable. Jesus - it would be nice if people just came and laid down all their magic items on your doorstep too, pre-ided with a book cataloging them so you didn't have to bother to use ID wands.

And if anyone should be talking about luck it isn't you... I didn't wake up in these people's houses. I waited patiently, I stalked, and I crept in unnoticed - as compared to standing at a bank hoping for someone dumb enough to come along with a runebook and a house key in their pack and not notice them being stolen. Talk about luck.

[MatronDeWinter]

Your ability to enter houses is completely irrelevant.

Runebooks are not still "completely stealable". That would be the same as me saying, (in referance to my above hypothetical hally situation), that the 2 second swing is still completely possible, it just depends on a dice roll and the ratio of items to halberds in your backpack. Runebook stealing, IS, nearly impossible. Suppose I random steal from a person, completely pulling numbers out of thin air, let's say the average person has 10 items in their backpack, (typically, the folks carrying anything worth stealing have far more). So right off the bat, I have a 10% chance of even targeting the correct book. Depending on the items, I could either, grab at a newbied item and wait 10 seconds to be able to try again, (they could leave by then), or I grab something overly-heavy and immediately get whacked, the third option is that I grab something else, and then get another dice-roll to see if I am even successfull. I could turn grey, I could be okay, i could get guardwhacked. Not in my favor from the beginning, and it was hardly worth the risk to score the empty bottle, 5 mandrake, or pair of scissors. Suppose I hit the runebook, I still have that dice-roll to check the stealing skill, That cuts my 10% in half.

Considering all of the newbied-garbage people carry around (and some will start carrying more now, I know my non-thieves will) my chances are far less than 5%.

[EVeee]

Suppose I random steal from a person, completely pulling numbers out of thin air, let's say the average person has 10 items in their backpack, (typically, the folks carrying anything worth stealing have far more). So right off the bat, I have a 10% chance of even targeting the correct book. Depending on the items, I could either, grab at a newbied item and wait 10 seconds to be able to try again, (they could leave by then), or I grab something overly-heavy and immediately get whacked, the third option is that I grab something else, and then get another dice-roll to see if I am even successfull. I could turn grey, I could be okay, i could get guardwhacked. Not in my favor from the beginning, and it was hardly worth the risk to score the empty bottle, 5 mandrake, or pair of scissors. Suppose I hit the runebook, I still have that dice-roll to check the stealing skill, That cuts my 10% in half.

Considering all of the newbied-garbage people carry around (and some will start carrying more now, I know my non-thieves will) my chances are far less than 5%.

#1 - You are not owed any particular percentage chance of being able to steal a runebook.

#2 - If your entire thieving career revolved around stealing runebooks from dummies at banks, then I'm sorry for your loss but I'm also the one to give you the hard news - it's time to pick a new career path.

[MatronDeWinter]

#1 - You are not owed any particular percentage chance of being able to steal a runebook.

#2 - If your entire thieving career revolved around stealing runebooks from dummies at banks, then I'm sorry for your loss but I'm also the one to give you the hard news - it's time to pick a new career path.

1.) Your right, but my point was to display that it is, nearly impossible, to steal a runebook. Clearly you misunderstood my intentions.

2.)This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. If you plan to display your poor misconception of how others play the game, please do so elsewhere.

[EVeee]

2.)This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. If you plan to display your poor misconception of how others play the game, please do so elsewhere.

Excuse me for taking this - "Bottom line is, this does severely effect a specific skillset, and with no disrespect to the staff, and certainly no remorse for the other changes made, the thief-community stronly contests this one change."

and this: "This is a sad day for thieves"

as meaning that you spend a lot of time stealing runebooks or, more likely, waiting to. I suppose just like bard-players scream and rage about changes to weapon swing timers, you're up in arms about something that doesn't personally affect you in the least.

[MatronDeWinter]

Excuse me for taking this - "Bottom line is, this does severely effect a specific skillset, and with no disrespect to the staff, and certainly no remorse for the other changes made, the thief-community strongly contests this one change."

and this: "This is a sad day for thieves"

as meaning that you spend a lot of time stealing runebooks or, more likely, waiting to. I suppose just like bard-players scream and rage about changes to weapon swing timers, you're up in arms about something that doesn't personally affect you in the least.

Just a counter for your obvious insistance that all thieves do is hide around the bank waiting to steal runebooks and gold from EVeee. There are plenty of other adventures to be had, but it's certainly important to keep your options open, and yes it does drastically effect certain facets of thieving.

[EVeee]

Just a counter for your obvious insistance that all thieves do is hide around the bank waiting to steal runebooks and gold from EVeee.

Haha - you think I loot houses and used to play a thief on OSI but leave myself open to the same? I never have anything stolen from me and I never have a house looted, so I harbor no ill will towards thieves. You're welcome to try me, but your chances of success are much lower than that of you stealing another runebook.