Keyring Discussion Question

[Mens Rea]

NEA

[Ronk]

If this server continues to be based off of only patch notes it'll never be T2A. At some point you have to say "if 99% of people remember it this way, then its good enough".

Alternatively, maybe this is another one of those cases where in the real T2A era no one knew about it and therefore it didn't happen. In which case here, everyone knows about it, and so everyone does it. As thus, you'll never have true T2A simply because people know too much.

[Pirul]

If this server continues to be based off of only patch notes it'll never be T2A. At some point you have to say "if 99% of people remember it this way, then its good enough".

I completely disagree with this. There are changes that have been made due to forum posts of the era, and I don't agree with that either. T2A was a relatively short period of time, and the actual cut off date is actually one moment in time of a game that has been going on for 14 years. It is waaaaaay too easy to remember or "find" something that was from another era. Hell, even the mechanics during t2a were shuffled around quite a bit. I think we need hard evidence of a mechanic to change it.

A forum post that said "My EV was just standing there doing nothing" or "My EV went and attacked me!!" should not be used to change EV's AI, for example. But that's a whole other discussion.

[Hicha]

If this server continues to be based off of only patch notes it'll never be T2A. At some point you have to say "if 99% of people remember it this way, then its good enough".

I completely disagree with this. There are changes that have been made due to forum posts of the era, and I don't agree with that either. T2A was a relatively short period of time, and the actual cut off date is actually one moment in time of a game that has been going on for 14 years. It is waaaaaay too easy to remember or "find" something that was from another era. Hell, even the mechanics during t2a were shuffled around quite a bit. I think we need hard evidence of a mechanic to change it.

A forum post that said "My EV was just standing there doing nothing" or "My EV went and attacked me!!" should not be used to change EV's AI, for example. But that's a whole other discussion.

Not necessarily true; awhile back Kraarug and I posted the same amount of info regarding how DP should be more deadly as there was info saying DP was weaksauce, and in the end, it seemed they just went with Fausts version because somehow his opinion is greater than most peoples' facts, and how his references 'trumphed' ours.

[Pirul]

If this server continues to be based off of only patch notes it'll never be T2A. At some point you have to say "if 99% of people remember it this way, then its good enough".

I completely disagree with this. There are changes that have been made due to forum posts of the era, and I don't agree with that either. T2A was a relatively short period of time, and the actual cut off date is actually one moment in time of a game that has been going on for 14 years. It is waaaaaay too easy to remember or "find" something that was from another era. Hell, even the mechanics during t2a were shuffled around quite a bit. I think we need hard evidence of a mechanic to change it.

A forum post that said "My EV was just standing there doing nothing" or "My EV went and attacked me!!" should not be used to change EV's AI, for example. But that's a whole other discussion.

Not necessarily true; awhile back Kraarug and I posted the same amount of info regarding how DP should be more deadly as there was info saying DP was weaksauce, and in the end, it seemed they just went with Fausts version because somehow his opinion is greater than most peoples' facts, and how his references 'trumphed' ours.

Actually, that's precisely what I wanted to get across, opinions, memories and random forum posts should not make for changes, regardless of who they come from.

[Kaivan]

If this server continues to be based off of only patch notes it'll never be T2A. At some point you have to say "if 99% of people remember it this way, then its good enough".

I completely disagree with this. There are changes that have been made due to forum posts of the era, and I don't agree with that either. T2A was a relatively short period of time, and the actual cut off date is actually one moment in time of a game that has been going on for 14 years. It is waaaaaay too easy to remember or "find" something that was from another era. Hell, even the mechanics during t2a were shuffled around quite a bit. I think we need hard evidence of a mechanic to change it.

A forum post that said "My EV was just standing there doing nothing" or "My EV went and attacked me!!" should not be used to change EV's AI, for example. But that's a whole other discussion.

Not necessarily true; awhile back Kraarug and I posted the same amount of info regarding how DP should be more deadly as there was info saying DP was weaksauce, and in the end, it seemed they just went with Fausts version because somehow his opinion is greater than most peoples' facts, and how his references 'trumphed' ours.

Actually, the changes to poison were strictly made using the demo and an archive of the stratics poison essay from the end of T2A that cited identical numbers. No one particular person's opinions weighed in at all.

Edit: Regarding the subject of keyrings on doorsteps, the issue of whether a person can use the keyring is rather ambiguous, with the demo and other related sources giving us little information. As an example, we know that potion kegs are only usable by the house owner and friends of the house. We also know that anyone can "use" a runebook, but only house owners & friends can actually remove runes from them. These are clearly actions that have different levels of access built into them when they are locked down, but the issue is more complex than that. Another issue to contend with is whether these attributes were associated with the new housing rules, or whether they were associated with the housing rules prior to the November 23, 1999 patch (remember runebooks and kegs came in at the same time). So, in these instances where we are dealing with items that existed prior to November 23, we'll need to look up some information.

Also, for all keyrings (and other related items) locked down on steps, this is due to a UOSA bug with locking down floating items above a specific z-axis.

[Pirul]

We also know that anyone can "use" a runebook, but only house owners & friends can actually remove runes from them.

It's not working precisely that way right now. Friends cannot remove runes from locked down runebooks.

[Mens Rea]

Also, for all keyrings (and other related items) locked down on steps, this is due to a UOSA bug with locking down floating items above a specific z-axis.

NEA / smelt it / son / etc

BTW - TRAPPED POISON BOXES WERE WAY MORE POWERFUL THAN THEY ARE NOW IRL

[Sandro]

BTW - TRAPPED POISON BOXES WERE WAY MORE POWERFUL THAN THEY ARE NOW IRL

I would have to agree, the level 5 poison traps seem pretty laugh-able compared to what I remember.

Most likely the result of not everyone having 100 str back in 1999 I would presume..

[Mens Rea]

Perhaps, Sandra, perhaps.

[Kaivan]

We also know that anyone can "use" a runebook, but only house owners & friends can actually remove runes from them.

It's not working precisely that way right now. Friends cannot remove runes from locked down runebooks.

I had to go fishing for the resources on this and I misspoke on the issue. As per a pretty detailed newsgroups thread, a runebook that is locked down cannot have its runes removed, or default location changed by anyone. It can however have runes added to it, and this can be done by anyone. The thread can be found here. Additionally, with respect to keyrings and keys, a 2002 thread describes the exact scenario that Mens Rea is describing (after it became legal to lock down items you could pass through on your steps). This is an excerpt from the newsgroup posting:

gil <g...@qwest.net> wrote:
>Derek Lyons wrote:

>> Am I correct in assuming that if I lock a house key down on the steps,
>> friends and co-owners *only* will be able to use it? (Even other
>> characters on the account who have not formally been 'co-ownered'?)

>Yes, only friends/co's/owner can use a locked down key.

>Put the key(s) on a keyring, otherwise it won't work (at least it used
>to not work). When on a keyring you don't need to have the key on your
>person to use it, if not on a keyring you have to have it on your person
>(at least that's how it used to work, I haven't tested it for a long
>time).

It still works that way (I tested it), so that will be a backup method
because you have to click on the key, then the door (much slower).
With the key in your backpack you just click on the door.

So, as per this particular thread, keyrings were unusable by anyone without friend or better access, although this is difficult to pass as definitive information at best.

Finally, with respect to potion kegs, there is information to suggest that potion kegs were intended to be usable by only friends, co-owners, and owners, but never received that update until their lock down update in August 2000. The archived stratics page on potion keg construction & use has a warning about this on it, and a newsgroup posting describes the problem in action.

So, for runebooks and kegs, we have some very clear cut information dated to a time that is mechanically identical to the release date of those items, and for keyrings we have some very out of era information that describes a somewhat similar mechanic to that seen in the demo (it does not definitively answer the question at this time).

[Lord Cavewight of GL]

If it helps the discussion of using locked down items in T2A era, I saw a guildmate make a campfire in a guys tower and cook his Easter eggs which were locked down.


Other than that I cant say I remember much on the subject.

[Pirul]

We also know that anyone can "use" a runebook, but only house owners & friends can actually remove runes from them.

It's not working precisely that way right now. Friends cannot remove runes from locked down runebooks.

I had to go fishing for the resources on this and I misspoke on the issue. As per a pretty detailed newsgroups thread, a runebook that is locked down cannot have its runes removed, or default location changed by anyone. It can however have runes added to it, and this can be done by anyone. The thread can be found here.

Sorry to be a PITA, but only the owner can add runes to locked down runebooks currently.

[Mens Rea]

If a person had a potion locked down in a house, you could drink it. The resulting empty bottle would not be locked down.

If a person had a fruit basket locked down in a house, you could eat it. The resulting basket would not be locked down.

If a person had a rune locked down in a house, you could rename it. The rune would remained locked down.

However, if you tried to pick up an item it would not budge.


Regards,

T2A Master.

[Kaivan]

If a person had a potion locked down in a house, you could drink it. The resulting empty bottle would not be locked down.

If a person had a fruit basket locked down in a house, you could eat it. The resulting basket would not be locked down.

If a person had a rune locked down in a house, you could rename it. The rune would remained locked down.

However, if you tried to pick up an item it would not budge.


Regards,

T2A Master.

With regards to both potions and fruit baskets, there are corroborating newsgroup postings that show that it was possible to use these items. This newsgroup post talks about the lock down changes that were brought about in early UOR, which followed the November 23, 1999 changes to how many lockdowns existed in a house, but did very little to change the mechanics from beforehand. This post in an in-era post where a player asks a question regarding the ability to use locked down fruit baskets, and mentions that bottles of ale can be used. Finally, this thread contains a detailed post about the lock down system that had just been introduced, and includes a generalized statement that is consistent with the other newsgroup threads and other relevant information. The statement is as follows:

Locking something down doesn’t prevent people from using it. If you
locked down a yellow potion, other people (assuming they get in the
house) can still drink it.

Given that this information is consistent with other information about specific items, it is reasonable to say that short of runebooks and runes (more on runes in a minute), all items that could be locked down could be used.

On the subject of renaming runes, there is a specific line item in the patch notes that indicates that locked down runes were not subject to being re-named (this is also mentioned in the last newsgroup thread). The line item is as follows:

Only friends of the house will be able to rename locked down runes.

So, runes are exempt from the general rule above by intentional design.