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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:51 pm 
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Boom hit the nail on the head. We have a test shard for a reason right?

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:28 pm 
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This was discussed at length a long time ago now. Players were overwhelmingly against it. Voted on the forums against it...then voted with their feet. I watched this shard go from ~1,000 - 600 Online when they implemented this....to 81 Online as I type this. I stuck it out for YEARS after ALL my friends left. Eventually, I just walked away for the most part. I keep hanging on a bit hoping that the staff will remove their heads from their rears, but I have little faith in them doing so.

Anywho, here's the link to the previous thread about this, Mens Rea....

LoS killings in houses...what's your take on it?

This thread was started by one of the kindest and most helpful members of this shard who eventually left, also.

Regardless of Era Accuracy, one thing OSI/EA always was consistent about was banning/stopping players from engaging in behavior that caused other players to quit the game. They even made Trammel for this reason. If this bug had been mainstream, it would have been squashed for that reason alone.

Kaivan brings up that they didn't officially remove it until 2006 by effectively negating it by requiring LoS to cause damage. He attempts, quite poorly, to use this to justify its continued existence while completely ignoring the fact that Trammel and other Trammel Ruleset landmasses were instituted thereby rendering this bug a minor issue. It eventually became an issue when it went mainstream YEARS after it was created. Until then, it was not widely known.

Just because someone can pull up a post from somewhere back in 1998 does not make it mainstream. You're applying present logic to a past issue and its a failure of logic. Search Engines weren't what they are today. People actually just adventured and played the game instead of "Googling" every way to be the best. Things simply aren't the same.

The percentage of people that knew about it in Era was infinitesimally small and Trammel was introduced shortly thereafter.

tldr;

OSI/EA's policies in the era would have squashed this if it had ever become an issue at all. Their later efforts back this up.

Patches before and after this spoke of LoS and how a player should actually have to see another player/mobile in order to use a skill on them or how they needed to break LoS in order to use other skills.

This LoS bug is not consistent with the overwhelming number of statements from OSI/EA on other bugs/patches/fixes regarding LoS and its use in-game.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:52 pm 
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Light Shade wrote:
Regardless of Era Accuracy, one thing OSI/EA always was consistent about was banning/stopping players from engaging in behavior that caused other players to quit the game. They even made Trammel for this reason. If this bug had been mainstream, it would have been squashed for that reason alone.

Kaivan brings up that they didn't officially remove it until 2006 by effectively negating it by requiring LoS to cause damage. He attempts, quite poorly, to use this to justify its continued existence while completely ignoring the fact that Trammel and other Trammel Ruleset landmasses were instituted thereby rendering this bug a minor issue. It eventually became an issue when it went mainstream YEARS after it was created. Until then, it was not widely known.

Just because someone can pull up a post from somewhere back in 1998 does not make it mainstream. You're applying present logic to a past issue and its a failure of logic. Search Engines weren't what they are today. People actually just adventured and played the game instead of "Googling" every way to be the best. Things simply aren't the same.


Well put.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:34 pm 
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Thank you Light Shade,

I agree with you, albeit I think it has come to a point where it is slightly disingenuous to point to blame Kaivan. Kaivan has, in my view, softened his position on this matter and has simply said "ask Derrick." I don't think this requires any removal of any body part from any part of the body. Such comments only cause parties to solidify their positions regardless of merit.

I think we can safely change my game breaking LOS exploit table to say:

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Think about it: Kaivan and Derrick probably spent countless hours working on the LOS system to make it era accurate. It probably took many moments of genius and intellect to bring the system to where it is. A fix may take hours and hours more...

Albeit, my views expressed earlier are that regardless of the LOS system that large stone houses should not be subject to this game breaking exploit. There should be a degree of certainty to this type of housing and it would be greatly appreciated by the player base if this matter was addressed.

So, who wants to help me pen a raven to the Hand of Lord British [Derrick] and begin the process of greasing him up?

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:05 pm 
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The best part about this entire discussion is that LOS isn't really that big of an issue. Adapting to housing doesn't ruin the game. Grow a pair.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:07 pm 
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Capitalist wrote:
The best part about this entire discussion is that LOS isn't really that big of an issue. Adapting to housing doesn't ruin the game. Grow a pair.


Thank you for your input but this matter is probably best left to people who actually played T2A UO.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:11 pm 
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Mens Rea wrote:
Capitalist wrote:
The best part about this entire discussion is that LOS isn't really that big of an issue. Adapting to housing doesn't ruin the game. Grow a pair.


Thank you for your input but this matter is probably best left to people who actually played T2A UO.

Oh, I was under the impression that these were the UOSA forums. Don't derail the thread by trying to divert from the real issue here. Grow a pair. LOS isn't a serious issue, and Lightshade is a joke for blaming the population drop on this issue when in reality it's a multitude of issues. The greatest of such issues having nothing to do with a house. Many great vets lived in smalls by choice.

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Denis the Menace wrote:
Vega for me you are just exploiting the uosa system with your vanq charged spellreflect recall invis pink boobi pvp trammel style which never existed on osi, so stfu.

Jakob wrote:
Regardless of douchebag, fair player or Vega.


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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:16 pm 
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Your insulting comments do not add any value to the discussion, please refer your comments to the trash talk area.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:24 pm 
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I can appreciate why this was moved from Community Development... But I'm disappointed it no longer shows up when clicking the handy "View Active Topics" link...

Speaking of, can I change the which topics show when I click that link?

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:31 pm 
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Drunk'n Disorder wrote:
I can appreciate why this was moved from Community Development... But I'm disappointed it no longer shows up when clicking the handy "View Active Topics" link...

Speaking of, can I change the which topics show when I click that link?


Use the 'View unread posts' button instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:10 am 
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Capitalist wrote:
Many great vets lived in smalls by choice.


There are several ways to change one's elevation in-game to kill people in smalls, also. I don't know how many people I, myself, have killed on the center tile of smalls using boats....teleporting behind waterfalls...teleporting under lakes....etc.

That fact that you don't understand that is quite amusing to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:27 am 
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Light Shade wrote:
Capitalist wrote:
Many great vets lived in smalls by choice.


There are several ways to change one's elevation in-game to kill people in smalls, also. I don't know how many people I, myself, have killed on the center tile of smalls using boats....teleporting behind waterfalls...teleporting under lakes....etc.

That fact that you don't understand that is quite amusing to me.

Clearly I was talking about non-flat land, water bound smalls. Definitely wasn't referring to the other 90% of the small spots people used in the history of UO.

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Denis the Menace wrote:
Vega for me you are just exploiting the uosa system with your vanq charged spellreflect recall invis pink boobi pvp trammel style which never existed on osi, so stfu.

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Regardless of douchebag, fair player or Vega.


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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:07 pm 
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Light Shade wrote:
Players were overwhelmingly against it. Voted on the forums against it...then voted with their feet. I watched this shard go from ~1,000 - 600 Online when they implemented this....to 81 Online as I type this.


To think this correlated with the shard's death is laughable at best. We all know why this shard died. Derrick disappeared along with the players that followed. There hasn't been a real patch in years. RunUO is dead, UOSA is dead, and this game as a whole is dead outside of a couple lingering UOR shards.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:38 pm 
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Faust wrote:
Light Shade wrote:
Players were overwhelmingly against it. Voted on the forums against it...then voted with their feet. I watched this shard go from ~1,000 - 600 Online when they implemented this....to 81 Online as I type this.


To think this correlated with the shard's death is laughable at best. We all know why this shard died. Derrick disappeared along with the players that followed. There hasn't been a real patch in years. RunUO is dead, UOSA is dead, and this game as a whole is dead outside of a couple lingering UOR shards.


Sup Faust, u mad bro? This shard started declining when I was banned. But now I'm back, so it's all G again.

Expect a stark retracement back to UOSA glory days, particularly once I successfully achieve a fix for stone buildings against the LOS bug.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix LOS bug
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:34 am 
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Something to consider is that even if this was in the CODE of the game, in era, there was NO WAY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE LOS CODE/BUG.

You could not do it with the normal client, and you could not do it with UOA.

Since we have Razor now, which is infinitely more powerful and allows you to do things that were not allowed nor done in era, should we not in fact consider it NEA? If you used UOE or any of the illegal programs that possibly could do this, or we seen doing anything like this or reported for house killing using the LOS bug in era - you would have been insta banned.

There were not patch notes, nor discussion about it because no one knew about it, it wasn't used or taken advantage of. PERIOD. I played on LS from launch and Baja through 2001-2 and nothing like this was ever seen, discussed, used, abused, rumored etc.

For it to be implemented and allowed here is a complete joke. It being able to be used makes this entire shard not era accurate. Era Accuracy should mean something MORE THAN JUST CODE ACCURATE.

This game is more than 1's and 0's and certain members of the current staff seem to not realize that.

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Last edited by Brules on Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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