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 Post subject: LOS
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:12 pm 
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Fix it?

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Abyz wrote:
Fix it?


Yes.

Wonder how many new players have ultimately quit because of this nonsense era inaccurate bug?

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 6:28 am 
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I got killed while hiding in the middle of my Keep by a chararter named "Dickbringer". Talk about era inaccuracy, how does Dickbringer get through the inappropriate name filter? BTW at GM detect hidden can you reveal someone in the middle of their Keep, or did this guy have tracking? Is this a character template made specifically to grief other players? On OSI if this was discovered I would think there would be repercussions for people using this "bug" until the dev team could fix it. Please reconsider this.
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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:39 am 
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Classic bringer of the D

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EyeOfHorus - Today at 12:03 AM
Grofus is the man tho
Vega - Today at 12:03 AM
^ agreed
we need about 5 more Grofy's on UOSA

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Grofus wrote:
Classic bringer of the D


At OSI, "Dickbringer" was the nickname they gave to Garriott's chauffeur ...

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Anarcho requested this conversation partake within forums and not on discord.

I believe we all know the benefits of not having LOS on the server. But there is obviously a reason administration feels it is important to keep in.

I am quite impartial as a patio works fine and I take no joy in killing afkers. However (aside from natural interest and people moving on) if we had to say 1 thing that contributed to server decline most. The LOS bug would prob rank above removal of events. Maybe not in pure numbers of population but key community organizers and members.

I think the biggest issue people have had with LOS is not necessarily the mechanic. But the communication of the reasoning from administration. Often time was either non exsistent or a very shallow , face value answer "its era accurate"

My question would be to help us all understand;

Why is this mechanic so important for staff to retain?

Is it something they feel vital to enjoyment of the game ?
Is it difficult and time consuming to revert?
Or could it be something else ?


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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:35 pm 
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I've copied and pasted a few conversations from discord, removing the side chatter.

Ben - 04/29/2017
@Anarcho viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66582 can we get rid of this era accurate bug ? Seems this is how a lot of people seem to leave for
UO Second Age
UO Second Age: House killed again - I'm out for good, congrats!
House killed again - I'm out for good, congrats!

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
line of sight is a set formula/mechanic

Ben - 04/29/2017
I just don't see the benefit of leaving this ?

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
you can't just tweak it to accommodate something like that without changing it completely

Ben - 04/29/2017
I c
But was this not changed prior

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
I believe it's ripped straight from the demo

Ben - 04/29/2017
I don't remember line of sight bug during 2009-2011
I could just not remember
I think AOE spells legit just the purple pots 9 tiles in is rough

Abyz - 04/29/2017
No one had figured it out using razor gimmicks at that time

Ben - 04/29/2017
You can still do the purple pots without razor

Abyz - 04/29/2017
How?
Ya but you need some kind of targeting in razor to throw them through stuff
I don't think that works?

Ben - 04/29/2017
Try it out

Abyz - 04/29/2017
I will later, but I don't think you can just chuck purples at someone in a house using last target

Ben - 04/29/2017
I will try later

Abyz - 04/29/2017
You have to use target relative location in razor
@Anarcho probably can't fix it

Ben - 04/29/2017
He has skills

Abyz - 04/29/2017
!events

Ben - 04/29/2017
I don't believe it was a thing back before a patch , could be wrong

Abyz - 04/29/2017
Willpower is different than skills

Ben - 04/29/2017
Lol

Fox - 04/29/2017
just hate seeing the shard not be ERA accurate as far as population, due to this mechanic!
that's my logic and I'm sticking to it!

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Abyz - 04/29/2017
I know staff can disable features in razor... I played a shard in the past that didn't let razor filter light levels. That was awesome
I'm totally with you @Fox

Fox - 04/29/2017
so edit the targeting relative location to be limited to like 2 tiles or something

Abyz - 04/29/2017
Exactly

Fox - 04/29/2017
can't think of anything but dropping stuff in house decorating positions, that you'd need to relatively target that far out
and in house decor 1 tile is enough

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
limiting razor features forces players to use razor to be able to log in
and the limits are easily circumvented

Fox - 04/29/2017
what do you mean by your first line?
for people who auto-log in to refresh houses and shit?

Abyz - 04/29/2017
By using alternative 3rd party programs
?

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
to limit razor features on RunUO, Razor has to do a handshake with the server
saying
"I am razor, and yes I will disable these features"
logging in otherwise (standard client, etc) will not be able to do this
so razor use is forced
further, the disabling is still easily circumvented

Abyz - 04/29/2017
I don't see a problem
Oh?
I'm curious

Fox - 04/29/2017
not sure who wouldn't use razor, but I see. Disable is easily circumvented, sounds illegal!

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
I brought this up many years ago, I used to be adamant about it, there's a forum post somewhere
ultimately, Derrick didn't want to force players to use Razor
Fox - 04/29/2017
so you're saying if it were fixable, you'd be for removing it?

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
I'm not
It's not been established that it needs to be fixed

Fox - 04/29/2017
well that is good... [sic, damnit, I misread his statement...]

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
We're supposing that the formula/mechanic is accurate

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:46 pm 
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Vintirex - 04/29/2017
YARRRR

Abyz - 04/29/2017
Only with a nea third party program roflllll

Fox - 04/29/2017
I missed the posts (swear I read a lot) where it was agreed that it should be removed/fixed, if able to in a way that was... 'good'

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
The line of sight formula allows for it

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
the mechanic is accurate

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
The formula is either correct or incorrect, as far as I'm concerned

Abyz - 04/29/2017
A mechanic that requires razor is era accurate?

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
being able to use it isnt
yes

Abyz - 04/29/2017
Hmmmmm ok

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
the issue is with razor being able to do it

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
I'm a bit rusty on my memory on it, but I seem to recall that it was established that itw as possible in era
So I believe we are 100% the server allowedf for it on OSI

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
and like you said, derrick didnt want to force people to use razor
its still possible now anarcho

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
so first we can break this dwon betwen client and server

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
its a razor/forcing people to use razor option

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
I believe it was established that client abilities in era allowed for it as well

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
and its also not breaking the population as said above

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
I would have to do some looking up

Abyz - 04/29/2017
Who plays without razor besides cheaters?

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
If it was entirely impossible in era to do it through all means possible, I would consider something - but again, it's incredibly difficult to "fix" such an issue without having a cascading effect this is a formula

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
i can sum it up completely @Anarcho since ive been involved with the thing from the beginning

Abyz - 04/29/2017
You could tweak razor to make it MORE era accurate

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
that's not how this works

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
the mechanic is still in place on osi, it wasnt done because you couldnt target relative location. you could force people to use razor and disable that , but derrick doesnt want to force people to use razor
and thats that. its not going to change. its amazing we still want to have this conversation

Abyz - 04/29/2017
shrugs I just want us to be forced to use nightsight spell and/or potions

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:47 pm 
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Vintirex - 04/29/2017
lol

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21778
UO Second Age
UO Second Age: get rid of the light level filter on razor
get rid of the light level filter on razor

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
ahh the good ol days of pausing a fight to in lor

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
2010 lol

Ben - 04/29/2017
Well with the open real estate now there is a ton of places to place a safe house :house_with_garden: for macroing

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31982
UO Second Age
UO Second Age: Hemperor was right. (Razor features)
Hemperor was right. (Razor features)
"Hemperor was right"
again, I used to be very adamant about this lol

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
well we know that post is bullshit

Kabup - 04/29/2017
I used to play in a server, they started to change things to be 'better', it just ruined everything

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
That is a good thread, ti contains Derrick's insight

Abyz - 04/29/2017
Getting rid of light level filter is 100% win

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
I don't even think that's accurate

Ben - 04/29/2017
Lol nightsight kegs for sale again

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
quite sure that was easily done in era

Kabup - 04/29/2017
yes, but then will be another stuff to be changed, and...

Abyz - 04/29/2017
How?

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9177
UO Second Age
UO Second Age: Limiting Razor Features
Limiting Razor Features
here's me 8 years ago

Ben - 04/29/2017
Nightsight pots means less purples for you @Abyz

Fox - 04/29/2017
@Raistlin-UOSA join CTF only 3 players!
hurry!
@uosa join CTF only 3 players!

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
That last thread I linked is good as well, I don't have time to read it right now but I knwo Batlin chimes in
as well as others wtih UOA notes

Kabup - 04/29/2017
dura lex sed lex
Anarcho - 04/29/2017
The biggest issue is forcing players to use Razor

Abyz - 04/29/2017
I don't need purples @Ben

I like that post

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
Let me think about this
I don't mind someone resurrecting the topic
er this issue

Abyz - 04/29/2017
Nice!

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
If it's 110% certain that this was not possible from the client's end within era, I'd consider negative targets under house foundations
negating*

Abyz - 04/29/2017
@Anarcho would requiring razor to be used for uosa automatically keep losers from using other 3rd party programs?

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
what I just stated wouldn't requrie Razor
it would be a server side check

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
and no

Abyz - 04/29/2017
Just asking tho

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
I'm just shooting from the hip right now, my memory isnt' fresh on the topic

Vintirex - 04/29/2017
theres nothing to stop said losers from loading razor and then loading euo or whatever

Abyz - 04/29/2017
Ah ok

Anarcho - 04/29/2017
yeah I don't like limiting razor

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:53 pm 
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Now, for a second conversation, and probably the better one (thank you Vega):

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:42 PM
@Anarcho
yes and no.
Derrick is right, LOS is legitimate
using relative location via razor is NOT

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:42 PM
I don't know if " it makes playing impossible"
but I feel like it should get patched

Anarcho - Last Wednesday at 12:43 PM
using relative location for anything technically "isnt"

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:43 PM
so the way in which we use LOS is not legitimate
that's what I've been saying.

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:43 PM
Hemp, do you guys have a way of forcing a certain client "razor" to use server decided preset options?
similar to how you can force steam to use server rules

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:43 PM
it's a battle of 2 greater evils is all it is
can we eliminate razor? nerp
can we eliminate something that is EA because it's being exploited by a program?
we have before
we will again

Abyz - Last Wednesday at 12:44 PM
We should on los

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:44 PM
there are components of many add-on programs that have them banned on this server because of the "greater good"

Anarcho - Last Wednesday at 12:44 PM
I've skimmed through 5+ years of topics on the forums regarding this now
The only insinuations that this is only achievable through Razor are on this discord, right now

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:44 PM
jesus h christ
it is achievable through other means

Abyz - Last Wednesday at 12:45 PM
Lol
Lol

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:45 PM
but it is achievable at greater lengths and with much better results through razor

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:45 PM
I mean, you could do it through razor/steam/sallos/uoOrion

Abyz - Last Wednesday at 12:45 PM
Lol

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:45 PM
take your pick
lol

Abyz - Last Wednesday at 12:45 PM
Irl lol
Cmon hemp

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:45 PM
there are limitations to LOS via OSI era abilities
there are almost no limitations to LOS on UOSA via Razor
point 1 vs point 2 is all I'm debating

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:45 PM
can you even hotkey a "set last target" through in game options?

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:46 PM
and that LOS should be eliminated for the greater good aspect
not the era accuracy
to say that LOS is the most popular reason for UOSA population, and inevitably server decline is an understatement

Roadblock - Last Wednesday at 12:46 PM
Gold dupe?

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:46 PM
and for that reason should be eliminated
when was gold duping available?
lol

Abyz - Last Wednesday at 12:46 PM
Show a video doing it without a 3rd party program
PlZ

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:46 PM
I can show you in-game Abyz in literally 60 seconds
just have to pre-load macros
get some item IDs, and find a gump

Abyz - Last Wednesday at 12:47 PM
Huuuuge pita?

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:47 PM
but the fact that I have pre-set hotkeys for Razor to LOS anyone I run into
yep
only worth it vs someone I really don't like

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
if I remember correctly even getting it to work via razor is a PITA

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
nah

BoomlandJenkins - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
There was an issue with gold duping a number of years ago, handful of "key players" banned if I recall

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
you just sucked at it :smile:

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
pfft I showed you how to do it

Abyz - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
Yep crew

BoomlandJenkins - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
Pretty sure that was pre-me

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
still PITA

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
but I did it better
,3

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
true
I should of never showed you how to use razor to throw pots
I created a mosnter :frowning:

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:48 PM
yeah gold duping and other things that have already been fixed have no real correlation to making players actively quit
I could go around over the next 7 days and make at least 50 people quit this server
I'm sure of it because I've done it before

BoomlandJenkins - Last Wednesday at 12:49 PM
Some people quit because we banned their friends for cheating. Hardly a loss

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:49 PM
yes, that's not the discussion here
will people come and go for a multitude of reasons? yes
will LOS be the #1 reason? yes

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:50 PM
I mean honestly how many people are even still playing that know how to do the LOS thing to achieve maximum grief levels
gotta be like sub 5 of you guys running around

Roadblock - Last Wednesday at 12:50 PM
@Vega are you saying you can kill people in patios?

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:50 PM
probably only the people responding here :smile:
depending on where you stand ive seen him kill people in almost every house

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:50 PM
yes
how do you think I looted violentdoza?
flat land surrounding a house by x tiles with a plaster house and proper protections will always be almost unkillable

Roadblock - Last Wednesday at 12:51 PM
He left his door open as usual??

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:51 PM
nah
I had 2 bots running that LOS'd him as he opened his back door
either way, I'm not referring to 14x15 patios when I'm talking about turning UO leisure players into UOSA addicts
who in the fuck wants to decorate and live out of a patio?

Abyz - Last Wednesday at 12:53 PM
^

Wonder - Last Wednesday at 12:53 PM
slowly raises hand
I loved my patio :frowning:

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:53 PM
you did it b/c you didn't wanna die to LOS :smile:

Abyz - Last Wednesday at 12:53 PM
A world full of patios
Yuck

Vega - Last Wednesday at 12:53 PM
the second you got rich your patio turned to dust

(cut out irrelevant chatter...)

Vega - Last Wednesday at 1:00 PM
good talk
afk

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Last edited by Fox on Mon May 29, 2017 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:59 pm 
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I make a similar point to what Vega is making, here: posting.php?mode=quote&f=11&p=558473

Fox wrote:
If this helps:

In honoring the goal of making this shard 'the way it was' and replicating the T2A era...

Servers during T2A were flourishing with players... random newbies all over the place! Easily 1000+ players on each server, during peak times.

This mechanic (which allows killing in house spots that were designed to be 'safe'), directly prohibits the growth of the server, thereby making the rule counterproductive to one of the primary goals of the server, replicating T2A!

:shock:

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Suggestion - make the decision to fix it for the greater good of the shard.

We've all seen countless new players quit over this.

Players can and will still feel that thrill of losing everything in the bag, without this.

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 Post subject: Re: LOS
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:27 pm 
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