How are Damage Types Used

[Ronk]

According to the current stratics webpage, a kryss is 53 speed and a katana is 46 speed. A dagger is listed as 56. What does this tell us? Not a whole lot really...but one possibility is to quit looking in the past for answers and start from the modern day weapon stats and work your way back through patches.

[Derrick]

The T2A strategy guide was written well before the anatomy and eval int bonuses were introduced, in adition to pre-Mediation skill and other changes. The reason we use the era taget dates of May-Nov 1999 is that this was a period of relative calm in terms of major mechanics changes, and we try to take all our stats, tables and formulas from this time period.

If you look at spells in the same strategy guide (i don't have it in front of me), you'll see that Magic Arrow does 30+ damage. We simply and sadly can't use the gude as a basis for much.

[Derrick]

According to the current stratics webpage, a kryss is 53 speed and a katana is 46 speed. A dagger is listed as 56. What does this tell us? Not a whole lot really...but one possibility is to quit looking in the past for answers and start from the modern day weapon stats and work your way back through patches.

This is a very good observation and point. Many combat systems post-AOS are acually more T2A accurate than UO:R and Pre-T2A values.

[MatronDeWinter]

I always thought the dagger was the fastest weapon followed by the kryss. The only reason I remember swords being so popular was because of the obvious uses of the halberd and the availability of magic weapons (and then Axes during UO:R obviously).

[Hoots]

I think Derrick that this needs to be discussed and eventually corrected to be a true and accurate replication of OSI's T2A.

It was my understanding throughout era that the kryss was the fastest weapon (next to the dagger). It was also my understanding throughout era that dispelling a gate dispelled both sides

I can't ride on what I or others remember. I agree that it sure as hell seems like the kryss should be faster.

It's hard to say ok lets change the speed of the kryss though, when we have nothing known to change it to. The only (realistic) era weapon speed/damage table lists the katana as faster. There is another Pre/Early-T2A table, but if you look at the damages, you'll see that something is up with that one, it's clearly pre-Anat bonus.

what about this one?

http://web.archive.org/web/199905022020 ... m/arms.htm

kryss 65, katana 58

May 02, 1999

putting uo.stratics.com/arms.htm into the way back machine.

edit. interesting txt on this page..

"The following stats apply to weapons generated on or after 2-12-98"

[Kaivan]

The archive date on that particular weapons table is part of a heavy lag time between the introduction of the new combat system that was introduced in November 98 and the date that stratics actually updated their page. The only other explanation would be a significant revamp to weapons during late T2A, and unfortunately, there is no evidence that such an update occurred.

I do understand that empirically speaking the katana should be slower than both the dagger and kryss (it seems logical to me that a lighter weapon should be faster), but we don't have any evidence that sits well with the known information about combat changes and suggests that a kryss or dagger was the faster weapon.

[Kraarug]

Here's another era source that points out the speed of a fencer and their ability to interrupt spells greater than circle 2

http://web.archive.org/web/199910030358 ... agic.htm#3

Look for the section called "Know Who to Pitch To".

If just seems funny that if the Katana was the fastest, then they would have mentioned a swordsman specificaly woudn't you think?

It is clear, save for that one silly page on stratics, that everyone knew that Fencing was the fastest and relied heviest on dex/stamina.

Why was Swords the most popular? Well, the answer greets you when you start a new character everytime. The default skill for a warrior class was swords. If you were a newbie and used their premade templates you would have been a swordsman.

If you knew the game mechanics and played for a bit, you KNEW to choose fencing for mage fighting.

Everyone who played a fencer during the era will tell you that. It wasn't a case of group think mistakes. Fencing was and should be the fastest.

[MatronDeWinter]

I think Hoots posted a good link. Transitional period or not, it shows the kryss as a faster weapon. Click the "older weapons" link on that same page and you get this...

http://web.archive.org/web/199905082158 ... rms212.htm

Kyrss is the faster weapon again.

In current UO, kryss is the faster weapon.

Thats 3 stratics listings from 3 different times, before during(t2a) and after, all showing the kryss/dagger as the faster weapon(s).

Why is it that during this one tiny little period of time, they (supposedly) made the katana faster. It's grasping at straws to assume that.

[Derrick]

I think Hoots posted a good link. Transitional period or not, it shows the kryss as a faster weapon. Click the "older weapons" link on that same page and you get this...

http://web.archive.org/web/199905082158 ... rms212.htm

Kyrss is the faster weapon again.

In current UO, kryss is the faster weapon.

Thats 3 stratics listings from 3 different times, before during(t2a) and after, all showing the kryss/dagger as the faster weapon(s).

Why is it that during this one tiny little period of time, they (supposedly) made the katana faster. It's grasping at straws to assume that.

I agree that evidence is standing towards the kryss being faster.

The only logical explanation that I see here though is that the Kryss and Kat speeds were accidentally reversed on the mid-Era Table

Quick comment on the above posted link. Please note that with current combat mechanics, using the damages from that table would result in a hally hitting for 85+ This was definately a pre Anat bonus table.

[Mikel123]

You definitely can't look at current weapon speeds to backtrack into what things were. They definitely made some changes to try to "balance" weapons because they failed originally by making fencing weapons so weak.

If you eyeball the speed table, fencing weapons sure do look the fastest overall. But what the designers didn't count on was people only using one weapon type (EDIT: I mean weapon model - like Katana vs Viking Sword vs Halberd). They assumed that people would grab a weapon and use it until they found a magic weapon, then start using that magic weapon. And they'd upgrade weapons according to whatever they found in their weapon skill. They didn't have the foresight to realize that the shards would be so populated that one could decide to solely use one particular weapon (i.e. the Katana) and never run out of them.

So despite the fact that fencing weapons are, in general, faster than swords... simply having one little tiny exception is enough top make this not the case in practice.

For what it's worth, this is just my opinion based on my recollection (both in-game and from Stratics) that the Katana was the fastest weapon. I have neither a swordsman nor a fencer on this shard right now - just a macer. So, much as I'd love to see some valid reasons for PvP characters to actually have to make a choice between weapon skills... if we're going for era accuracy, the Katana was faster than the Kryss and hit for similar damage.

[Ronk]

You definitely can't look at current weapon speeds to backtrack into what things were. They definitely made some changes to try to "balance" weapons because they failed originally by making fencing weapons so weak.

If you eyeball the speed table, fencing weapons sure do look the fastest overall. But what the designers didn't count on was people only using one weapon type (EDIT: I mean weapon model - like Katana vs Viking Sword vs Halberd). They assumed that people would grab a weapon and use it until they found a magic weapon, then start using that magic weapon. And they'd upgrade weapons according to whatever they found in their weapon skill. They didn't have the foresight to realize that the shards would be so populated that one could decide to solely use one particular weapon (i.e. the Katana) and never run out of them.

So despite the fact that fencing weapons are, in general, faster than swords... simply having one little tiny exception is enough top make this not the case in practice.

For what it's worth, this is just my opinion based on my recollection (both in-game and from Stratics) that the Katana was the fastest weapon. I have neither a swordsman nor a fencer on this shard right now - just a macer. So, much as I'd love to see some valid reasons for PvP characters to actually have to make a choice between weapon skills... if we're going for era accuracy, the Katana was faster than the Kryss and hit for similar damage.

You most certainly can look at modern and back track. From one point you can do as a person did above and say that in instances before and after the 'T2A Listed speeds' it shows the kryss faster and from that make the assumption that (much like the spell delay stratics page) the weapon speed one is incorrect. Alternatively you can start at what the current speeds are and backtrack through the change logs noting each time the weapon speeds are changed. You could track the 'changes' over time and get a good judgement on what the stats were.

In other words, if every era of UO says kryss is faster except T2A, which is more likely? That the developers decided to make kryss slower for a brief period before restoring it...or that that the stratics people got the two weapons confused?

I tend to agree that it appears as though the katana and kryss speeds were mistakenly swapped in the chart. The question is, were the damages swapped too or just the speeds?

[Hemperor]

You could say these are only statements from players during the era, but then again, you guys are only making statements 10 years after :

Katana, a POS, all there is to it, hits less hard then a kryss against low
armor, and is TINY bit faster, however it does enough less damage then a kryss
ot make it suck.

You know, that a katana is a bit faster than a kryss? And you could also
apply deadly poison on it.

Using kryss you are playing entirely for disruption and
poisoning. Katana is now faster than kryss.

Katana IS slightly faster than the kryss now, (about 8% faster, I believe)
but kryss does more damage (like 10-15% more base, not even accounting for
the fact that the difference is greater because of armor).

OSI (sarcasm):"Let's see, all the folks who want the fastest weapon, regardless of damage,
are using fencing... all the people who want to do more damage, and are
willing to sacrifice some speed.. are taking swordsmanship.. bah, we like
swords better, screw those fencing guys... swords will now have the fastest
AND the biggest weapons.."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 30fb75d32e

Factor in speed, and a katana is
arguably the best weapon in the game.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.game ... 6992d539ab

Only a fraction of the memories I could pull from the sight... just to balance thet playing fields here. What it seems to me is that at one point kryss was faster and then the weapon tables were changed. What date is ours from?

[MatronDeWinter]

Only a fraction of the memories I could pull.....

VERY NICE HEMP! Almost your whole post in it's entirety came from one mans post, but I love how you seperated it into different sections to give it that nice look.

Here are the fencing quotes from the same link you posted, each "quote" posted below is a different post. Let's give that a try for a change.

then I would go
fencing, the kryss/good magic daggers own mages if well used

I get the
impression that the fencing weapons are fast enough to do it, like the magic
dagger or kryss.

Fencing. Speed is everything in close combat, and you can put some
deadly poison on that blade too.

Magery then, but fencers are the only ones that can disrupt
often enough to keep a mage in place so that's still a great choice.

I was at 96 swords before I switched to maces on my tank mage. I hate
maces. They are slow and clumsy and don't do much damage. If you want
slow and clumsy big swords will do the most damage (a large two-handed
axe or a halberd can easily kill in 3 blows). Speed is really important
though so I'd still recommend fencing.

You can poison all fencing weapons. A dp spear is naasssty against a
warrior. And a dp dagger can seriously mess up a mage because of the speed.

ME 91 tactics 90 Fencing 65 Str 100 Dex (I know I know)
HER (my girlfriend) 92 tactics 90 Swordmanship Str 91 Dex 70
Myself Armed with a GM kryss her with a GM katana.
First Spar she takes 5 points of me I reduce her to 10 remaining
she heals
Second spar she takes 15 points of me I reduce her to 5 remaining points.
Third Spar.........I Reduce her to tears =) .....she wants a fencer now.

It's clear to me, reading through that chatlog, that virtually nobody had any idea what they were talking about, but still fencing is mentioned as the fastest weapons SEVERAL times more than swords.

On a side note, the same guy who hemperor quoted had very little knowledge on fencing (or poisoning for that matter). Here is the hemperor-posted quote with the ignorant part intact, I have no idea why hemperor would remove it...

Of all the fencing weapons, you can only poison the kryss, which does little
against armor. Using kryss you are playing entirely for disruption and
poisoning. Katana is now faster than kryss.

[Hemperor]

What it seems to me is that at one point kryss was faster and then the weapon tables were changed. What date is ours from?

No need to be rude Matron, you only further embarass yourself. My quotes directly state "katana is faster than kryss" while yours state "yay fencing is fun".

So do you mean to tell me that real players in era had no idea what they were talking about (the vast majority around the time period of our weapon tables agree that katana is faster), but you, a no name douche thief 10 years later has a valid opinion to be considered?

Please, spare me

[MatronDeWinter]

What it seems to me is that at one point kryss was faster and then the weapon tables were changed. What date is ours from?

No need to be rude Matron, you only further embarass yourself. My quotes directly state "katana is faster than kryss" while yours state "yay fencing is fun".

So do you mean to tell me that real players in era had no idea what they were talking about (the vast majority around the time period of our weapon tables agree that katana is faster), but you, a no name douche thief 10 years later has a valid opinion to be considered?

Please, spare me

No I'm telling you that the one (or two) people you quoted were not OSI staff and had just as much average knowledge as we can assume anyone else had. Almost all of the posters felt that fencing was faster.

Your quote can directly state "katana is faster than kryss" all day long, but it's meaningless until it's quoted from a remotely-reliable source and not just "Some group-forum guy who believed swords was faster and that the kryss was the only poisonable fencing weapon".

This is a legitimate discussion here too, and I particularly enjoy reading your biased threads on fencing (oh noes my tank mage!) and stablemasters (the ones which you clearly bash ace as your sole purpose for grasping at straws). If you want to argue this, post it on up in the Trash-Talk, I wont mind. Otherwise, stay on topic with items valid to this discussion, kthnx.