All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]

Forum rules


Posts in this forum are expected to be constructive, realistic and civil. Inflamatory or off topic posts will be removed.


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ] 
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar
User Rep: Fair
 Profile

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 6247
Spell interruption has been a heated controversy since the "chance based formula" was introduced here several months back. This allowed the posibility that a caster could very well not take spell interruption when casting a spell. The argument behind this is that "nobody ever remembers" not being interrupted while being struck in combat. This has definitely been proven without a doubt to not be the case based on the actual code that OSI used.

There was a huge discussion a few weeks ago surrounding melee hits using the damage value before the damage was halved. We all very well know that damage is halved in the combat damage formula for all melee strikes for those that follow the topic. This after all was "just a theory" and never was proven.

Recently there has been a major discovery in the demo code involving damage being cut globally in half. This means when damage occurs in game that the server will finalize that damage value by dividing it by 2 at the end result. This leaves an open posibility that the previous theory for spell interruption for melee hits may very well be the case globally. It is highly possible that all damage was calculated in the spell interruption formula before the value was cut in half through the global method.

Here is the patch note in 1997 indicating that ALL damage was cut in half globally that is also present in the demo.

All damage has been mathematically halved to slow down combat across the board. This takes place after damage absorption by armor.


I think this is the missing link or key that surrounds the spell interruption formula...

Edit:
Batlin just informed me that he will be doing some extensive testing with the spell interruption script to get precise values being casted into the spell interruption method. This will tell us if this theory is very well true or not soon as he finishes this project.

_________________
mYm - Red Knees & Great Suction Capacity

8D - SoN's of SmackiniT - 8D


Top
 
These Support SecondAge
Links open a new window.
UOSA Donors & Subscribers do not receive these ads.

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:20 pm 
Offline
UOSA Subscriber!
UOSA Subscriber!
User avatar
User Rep: Fair
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 4368
This would be huge, look forward to seeing results of this.

_________________
Image

[22:26] <ian> why am i making 3750 empty kegs
[22:27] <ian> 1125000 for 3750 empty kegs
----------------------------------------
[10:44] <ian> a good cat is a dead cat


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:23 pm 
Offline
User Rep: Good
Good
 Profile

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:32 pm
Posts: 3095
Location: Uganda
add a tl;dr

_________________
Image


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar
User Rep: Fair
 Profile

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 6247
That patch note could very well only be referring to the part in the formula for melee damage where it's cut in half. However, we know poison damage(not melee) is cut in half on the demo giving a high posibility that ALL damage was actually cut in half. The question that needs to be answered in the test is "Does this apply to ALL damage not just melee?" in my opinion.

_________________
mYm - Red Knees & Great Suction Capacity

8D - SoN's of SmackiniT - 8D


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:39 pm 
Offline
UOSA Donor!!
UOSA Donor!!
User Rep: Fair
 Profile

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:11 am
Posts: 1153
What would the outcome of that then be? You talk in such code speak Faust.

Are you trying to bring back healing through hally hits? Are we interrpting to much? not enough?

When you explain something is wrong, please explain how its different from the current system.

_________________
[broken image]


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:46 pm 
Offline
UOSA Subscriber!
UOSA Subscriber!
User avatar
User Rep: Fair
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 4368
Melee damage now interrupts more because it checks the interrupt before the damage is halved, with spell damage it's the opposite. Pretty sure that's what's going on.

_________________
Image

[22:26] <ian> why am i making 3750 empty kegs
[22:27] <ian> 1125000 for 3750 empty kegs
----------------------------------------
[10:44] <ian> a good cat is a dead cat


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar
User Rep: Trustworthy
Trustworthy
 WWW  ICQ  Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:49 pm
Posts: 9002
Location: Cove
In the osi code, it's my understanding that the damage to players is halved when applied, globally, in core. UOSA differs from this in that damage halfing has been applied on a case by case basis. And before the damage is passes to the interrupt function. In the case of melée weapons, it was doubled for interrupt chance because we could clearly see that it was off.

I think we can now see that this needs to be applied globally. I'm on my mobile and am not able to look at the code right now, but I think this will effect spell damage interruption too.

It would be useful to know if the halfing in the demo core applied only to players.

There will of couse be some extensive testing before this goes live.

Everyone deserves a lot of thanks for the time and effort that's gone into debating this issue. And for the paience shown during the debate.

_________________
Image
"The text in this article or section may be incoherent or very hard to understand, and should be reworded if the intended meaning can be determined."


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar
User Rep: Fair
 Profile

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 6247
Throwing in a little update on this topic...

We are pretty sure that the pre-divided values are being casted in some shape or form into the spell interruption formula. However, there has been some lead way on this issue in numerous areas that was very unexpected. There was a major discovery involving magical attacks and even melee though.

Magical attacks or spells add "two" checks for spell interruption, while melee attacks only check "once" for some unknown reason. This means that spells actually have two opportunities to check for a spell interruption. The first check uses the pre-divided value and the second check uses the actual damage value after it's divided. A firebreath from a dragon produced a value of 76 in the first debuggin check and a value of 38 was casted in the second check. I am still not for certain if the first value checked on melee is the pre-divided value or not though. Batlin is still doing a lot of testing for this issue.

This lead me to the discovery of a patch note involving two magical attacks making the bandage timer slip twice...

Veterinary and Healing Changes Nov 23 1999 2:16PM CST - http://wiki.uosecondage.com/index.php?t ... atch_Notes wrote:
The issue with double finger slips while healing when hit with a magical attack will be resolved. You will now only slip once.


This patch here clearly shows the bug existed well over a year later even. This doesn't necessarily mean the bug ended here either, it just means that the healing timer part of it was fixed.

The reason that I am positive it didn't end here is very simple.

The demo uses a value of 0 damage for debuff spells on spell interruption MEANING that spell interruption DID occur when hit by a debuff spell(finally glad to prove this one without a doubt now). However, 0 damage used in the spell interruption formula used on a GM mage creates a disrupt value of 42% on the greater heal spell. This is "far" from being a constant disrupt, but if you include two checks on spell disruption from magical attacks it boosts the chance of disruption up significantly to 84% making it very likely for an interruption to happen. This is the main reason that I believe the double slipping was only fixed this issue with healing and nothing else.

My theory about all of this has been VERY precise so far... I theorized a long time ago that debuffs more than likely used a value of 0 damage for spell interruption, which turns out to be true after this test was conducted.

This means two things so far at this very moment, which could very well change at any moment after more testing is done by Batlin...


- Debuffs should not be interrupting spells a hundred percent of the time, but instead use a damage value of 0 in the spell interruption formula.

- Spells should check TWICE for a spell interruption when struck in combat while casting. The first check should be the pre-divided value and the second should be the divided value. This would include firebreath, poison, and any other magical attack that isn't melee.

What needs to be verified for melee is if the value used is the pre-divided or divided value. I am highly confident that the pre-divided value is used though.

I will leave more updates on this process when more information is made available to me from Batlin.

_________________
mYm - Red Knees & Great Suction Capacity

8D - SoN's of SmackiniT - 8D


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:49 pm 
Offline
UOSA Subscriber!
UOSA Subscriber!
User avatar
User Rep: Fair
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 4368
Nice work, way to tie in that patch note. I think doing many tests with interrupts on the multiplayer demo is a good noob way to get a further look into this, a nice average.

_________________
Image

[22:26] <ian> why am i making 3750 empty kegs
[22:27] <ian> 1125000 for 3750 empty kegs
----------------------------------------
[10:44] <ian> a good cat is a dead cat


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:55 pm 
Offline
UOSA Subscriber!
UOSA Subscriber!
User avatar
User Rep: Fair
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 4368
tekai wrote:
- Debuffs should not be interrupting spells a hundred percent of the time, but instead use a damage value of 0 in the spell interruption formula.

Didn't hemp prove that they do with the demo?

Don't mess with weaken interrption, it was accurate.


To reiterate, all I did on the demo was weaken my other character, and then weaken him again to see if it interrupted when already debuffed, which it did.

_________________
Image

[22:26] <ian> why am i making 3750 empty kegs
[22:27] <ian> 1125000 for 3750 empty kegs
----------------------------------------
[10:44] <ian> a good cat is a dead cat


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar
User Rep: Fair
 Profile

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 6247
Sorry, tekai this is factual evidence not "visual" unlike Hemp's test...

Spell interruption formula depends on the magery skill of the caster, the spell circle being casted, and the damage taken when struck in combat.

The test conducted by Hemperor was done by a low level mage sitting at 30 magery(matters a lot in a formula that uses this variable) with an 84% chance of disruption on a GM mage. This would put the chance well over 100% under the tests that Hemperor conducted.

_________________
mYm - Red Knees & Great Suction Capacity

8D - SoN's of SmackiniT - 8D


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:01 pm 
Offline
UOSA Donor!!
UOSA Donor!!
User avatar
User Rep: Good
Good
 Profile

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:35 am
Posts: 7242
Location: 你的錢包
Overall good stuff, and I think it would be a positive change. Good work to all who are involved.

_________________
Image
[cA] tales of adventure


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar
User Rep: Unsung
 Profile

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:53 am
Posts: 92
Location: Yew
ok for a lame ass, What is this going to do, slow pvp down or speed it up, or make it so that i wont get disrupted every time i try to recall my bard to escape?

_________________
Image
Derrick wrote:


The second scenario is not extremely likely, but it is more likely now than it was previously.


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:27 pm 
Offline
User Rep: Unsung
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:59 am
Posts: 2011
Location: [Set Grief = True
Redbeard72 wrote:
ok for a lame ass, What is this going to do, slow pvp down or speed it up, or make it so that i wont get disrupted every time i try to recall my bard to escape?


This won't be "changing" pvp in a direct manner. This is just altering the calculations of how spell interruptions occur. For those who base their pvp mechanics on interruptions, and not allowing their opponent to get any defensive spells off, this will help indeed..

I haven't yet returned to the pvp scene, but I hear a lot about how people get the recall spell off while being hit with a halberd, or recalling through an energy bolt.. This change will reduce the chances of such events happening..

_________________
#1 PK Guild on T2A
ironfistmax wrote:
Alatar is one of the best PvPers I have known. I have played UO since 1998 and every free shard known to man. It's not questionable whether he is good or not.
Hemperor wrote:
Alatar is a douche bag but at least he and cr3w would fight everyone.


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Spell Interrption:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:29 pm 
Offline
UOSA Donor!!
UOSA Donor!!
User Rep: Unsung
 Profile

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:46 pm
Posts: 1448
Redbeard72 wrote:
ok for a lame ass, What is this going to do, slow pvp down or speed it up, or make it so that i wont get disrupted every time i try to recall my bard to escape?


It will make it Era Accurate.

Right now, melee damage appears to be acting correctly.

Faust is saying that there we as double check for magery damage so, when this goes into effect one will get interrupted more with magery attacks.

This will also more than likely lead to interruption from poison damage as well.

_________________
Image


Top
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Support Second Age: These links Open in a New Window

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Extended by Karma MOD © 2007—2012 m157y