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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:01 am 
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i got it to 95ish just usign it ont he same NPC repeatedly, altho now it seems to go up much more by using it on a disguised theif.

Also i have a question for someone who has this at 100, i am unable to remvoe theif disguises, is thsi a GM abaility or does it just not work here?

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:54 am 
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MatronDeWinter wrote:
Forensic Eval is messed up here, it should not reveal perma-status. Why else would people use a non-thief to "steal" from a suspect to in order to determine their status. I am sure alot of people remember that. If the only referance to this is that screwed up Stratics Article and some chat about what people "Think" it can do, then this is completely off base. I have no idea how this was ever changed to the way it functions now to begin with, based on speculation alone.


They used steal because they didnt have Forensic Eval of course. You don't need a single point in stealing to do that.
This was from Jan 1, 2000 explaining how forensic eval was used at the beginning of the millenia.
http://web.archive.org/web/200006070131 ... flags.html

"If you are a member of the NPC Thieve's Guild, any player who successfully uses the Forensic Evaluation skill to reveal your membership in said guild may either attack or steal from you. If a player attacks you and that player dies and reports you for murder, you will be suspended from the thieves guild for the amount of time it takes for the short murder count (8 hours) to decay. While suspended you still cannot give murder counts, but cannot use the disguise kit or steal from innocents."

So it actually got worse for thieves where even if they were attacked first when they were perma or not if they defended themselves and the attacker died they would recieve a murder count which seems Forensics may have just made thieves grey no matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:26 pm 
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Alright, first:
The orignal version of this was written by "Chrae" and did NOT include the addition of the "forensic" note in the perma-grey flag section.

Second:
The editor of this essay is incorrect, and not only that, he edited it after our cutoff date.

Find me "proof" that this happened, because I know perfectly well that it did not from playing a thief nearly my entire uo-career.

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:08 am 
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MatronDeWinter wrote:
Alright, first:
The orignal version of this was written by "Chrae" and did NOT include the addition of the "forensic" note in the perma-grey flag section.

Second:
The editor of this essay is incorrect, and not only that, he edited it after our cutoff date.

Find me "proof" that this happened, because I know perfectly well that it did not from playing a thief nearly my entire uo-career.


You want "era proof" that Forensic Eval allowed people to kill theives just by exposing them as theives? I came across a ton of posts on that actually.

You sure? I will post them later. I am heading to bed right now. But if you want I can. Here are some starters.

Do a Control F with Forensic on this...the guy is talking about making a forensic character to PK in town. It makes sense that if guilded theives are the only ones who can steal from people who are blue there needs to be a counter that can tell if you are grey to balance. During this time very few people were aware of the changes as they happened as you can see in these threads.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... bbe8bd51cf

and this...the guy who counters it is a newb and doesn't know if attacking a blue turns you grey or not lol

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 86939794d5

and a quote

"he used forensics on you. it's a whole new class of bloopk, those who
kill thieves. they call em detectives. the person who did it is one
step ahead of every other blue pk. think about it, osi releases a new
class everyone wants to participate in (rogues) and at the same time an
established bloopk just has to macro forensics so he can kill every thief
in town. thing is, he has a great chance of total surprise and might just
get a housekey and rune from time to time. then he will be a
bloolooterpk.

dang that word looks kewl.


=)


On 8 Mar 1999, LydiaLasV wrote"

The surprise element as mentioned is not being near to the player in order to attempt to steal from him in order to see if he was perma,and now this...revealing thieves to make them attackable in town. Of course they were still grasping the complete mechanics of the skill so some of this is garbled in misconception. Being that very few knew how it worked I could imagine you as well might not have known.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 274ec7c8c5

And from the Dev Team...again use control F...saying forensic evaluation will make thieves attackable anywhere.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... d0421b013d

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:24 am 
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Having played a Detective almost my entire UO career...

UOSA; Forensics looks like it is (Have to check this, still building my Detective), what Detectives always wanted it to be. (Thieves, may differ)

(As i remember) Forensics was always a "useless" skill, the only thing it really did, was to tell if someone was in the thieves guild. No more, no less (Only talking Detective vs Thief here).
No disquise break or perma-grey detect......

The (non guilded) stealing from thieves was later removed and OSI promissed to make Forensics Detect Perma-Grey. The first they did.... the 2nd NOT.

Why do you think we had 100.000 thieves and only a few detectives.

ps: All the links provided talk about detecting if someone is a thief. Nothing is said about detecting perma-grey.

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:52 am 
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It did state the fact that after the skill was used they were able to kill thieves even inside guardzones. Did not say anything about the detectives getting whacked in doing so. Find me a link on someone using forensic evaluation in town on a thief and being whacked because he attacked them when they weren't "permagrey".

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:13 am 
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On OSI, anyone could attack a Perma-Grey thief in town, without being "whacked"

When a thief stole something, they turned grey... after 2 min, they only looked "blue".
But were in fact, still grey... hence the name "Perma-grey"

Once people know a thief is "Perma-Grey"... You are attacking the thief and not getting "Whacked" after all. They could/would join in the fun.

On Europa, near the moonglow bank... players would join in the hunt for the thief (posse). They never had any Forensics skill, not did the thief stole anything from them.


On the other hand... with multiple accounts... just make on your 2nd account an archer. Let him attack the thief... if he isnt "Whacked", the Thief is Perma-Grey, and the hunt begins.
If your archer is "whacked", wait 2 min.. and have some healing training, rez'n him ;)

I am sure, someone can make a real nice, multi account macro for this.

Which bring us back to Forensics... If the skill works as people tell me... Great!! I have a reason to GM it. If not, it saves me (say) 70 skill points, which i can use on other skills. You only need about 30 to find out if someone is in the thieves guild.

My Snitch, will then have Archery (newbie bow and 1 arrow) and GM Forensics... I see great things a foot.

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:15 am 
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Bel'ni wrote:
You only need about 30 to find out if someone is in the thieves guild.


Hmm, somehow i remember being able to detect this at 30-40 skill. Somehow this shard the forensics works otherwise here. This a bug or my bad memory?

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:06 am 
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archaicsubrosa77 wrote:
It did state the fact that after the skill was used they were able to kill thieves even inside guardzones. Did not say anything about the detectives getting whacked in doing so. Find me a link on someone using forensic evaluation in town on a thief and being whacked because he attacked them when they weren't "permagrey".


- If you attack a blue in town, even somebody in the thievesguild. You will get whacked!
- If the thief is perma-grey. You can attack all you want. Grey=Grey.

Yes, forensics (at high levels) is able to detect perma-grey.

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Bel'ni wrote:
archaicsubrosa77 wrote:
It did state the fact that after the skill was used they were able to kill thieves even inside guardzones. Did not say anything about the detectives getting whacked in doing so. Find me a link on someone using forensic evaluation in town on a thief and being whacked because he attacked them when they weren't "permagrey".


- If you attack a blue in town, even somebody in the thievesguild. You will get whacked!
- If the thief is perma-grey. You can attack all you want. Grey=Grey.

Yes, forensics (at high levels) is able to detect perma-grey.


I'm still a bit confused as to the perma-grey thing. Do all theives that join the theives guild automatically become (hidden) perma greys and thereby become attackable in town by a Detective that has successfully used the Forensics Evaluation skill on them?

or...

A theif actually has to steal something first to become perma-grey. And thereafter despite appearing blue to everyone else will appear grey to a Detective that has successfully used the Forensics Evaluation skill on them?

Or none of the above LOL.


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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Perma-grey has nothing to do with forensics.

You become Perma-Grey, if you steal from an other player.
As long as you dont die, you will still be grey to that player.

After you steal from someone, and you get away with it. You will turn blue again, after 2 mins.
But you are in fact, still grey... you just look blue to the others. (except the one you stole from)
Hence they call it, Perma-Grey.

Does this make it better?

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Bel'ni wrote:
Perma-grey has nothing to do with forensics.

You become Perma-Grey, if you steal from an other player.
As long as you dont die, you will still be grey to that player.

After you steal from someone, and you get away with it. You will turn blue again, after 2 mins.
But you are in fact, still grey... you just look blue to the others. (except the one you stole from)
Hence they call it, Perma-Grey.

Does this make it better?



Ok I understand this now, thanks :) The bit I'm unsure about is where a Detectives role comes into play.

This is the scenario I'd like to have cleared up...

1.. A detective, with GM forensics, finds a thief in town.

2.. The thief had earlier stolen something but has seen out the 2 minute timer since the crime, so he appears blue to everyone.

3.. The Detective comes along and uses forensic evaluation on the thief... so... will the thief now appear grey to the Detective and thereby be attackable, or will the thief always appear blue to the detective effecvtively making him impossible to bring to justice? So is it a case of the only one that can really bring a thief to justice is the actual person who got stolen from since thats the only person who will see the thief as a grey?


Sorry for all the noob questions, I always wanted to try the detective class but unfortuntely joined OSI's UO shortly after UO:R so never got chance to play one properly since they were useless after Renaissance.


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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:43 pm 
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Scribbler wrote:
Sorry for all the noob questions, I always wanted to try the detective class but unfortuntely joined OSI's UO shortly after UO:R so never got chance to play one properly since they were useless after Renaissance.

they weren't really useless after UO:R

sure there was no more house looting, but they were pretty good for stealing weapons from people after uo:r (with disarm) and stealing was actually a good force in pvp

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:03 am 
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Scribbler wrote:
Ok I understand this now, thanks :) The bit I'm unsure about is where a Detectives role comes into play.

This is the scenario I'd like to have cleared up...

1.. A detective, with GM forensics, finds a thief in town.

2.. The thief had earlier stolen something but has seen out the 2 minute timer since the crime, so he appears blue to everyone.

3.. The Detective comes along and uses forensic evaluation on the thief... so... will the thief now appear grey to the Detective and thereby be attackable, or will the thief always appear blue to the detective effecvtively making him impossible to bring to justice? So is it a case of the only one that can really bring a thief to justice is the actual person who got stolen from since thats the only person who will see the thief as a grey?


Sorry for all the noob questions, I always wanted to try the detective class but unfortuntely joined OSI's UO shortly after UO:R so never got chance to play one properly since they were useless after Renaissance.


No problems, for the questions... thats why we are here.

If the thief is perma-grey.... forensics, makes him grey to the detective.
But basicly, if the thief is perma-grey... i wont matter, you can always attack him.
With forensics or without.

But if you want some reassurance, you will need forensics. The see, if he is really perma-grey.

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 Post subject: Re: Forensic Evaluation
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:45 am 
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Bel'ni wrote:
No problems, for the questions... thats why we are here.

If the thief is perma-grey.... forensics, makes him grey to the detective.
But basicly, if the thief is perma-grey... i wont matter, you can always attack him.
With forensics or without.

But if you want some reassurance, you will need forensics. The see, if he is really perma-grey.



Thank you! This is what I was hoping for. My time working on Forensics will been worth it ;)


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