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 Post subject: Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:51 am 
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The purpose of this guide is to help educate the various warriors and warrior-mages on Sosaria as to the various properties of each weapon and how to select a good weapon. For some numeric details, see here: http://www.uosecondage.com/stratics/arms.html

There are four weapon types: archery, fencing, swords, and maces.

Archery weapons can shoot at a ranged distance, depending on type. You must be stopped in order to shoot an arrow, and you must be stopped the entire time the arrow is in flight, or the arrow will miss automatically. Additionally, your target must remain in-range and within line-of-sight the entire flight of the arrow or else the arrow will miss entirely. If you move once the arrow is shot (before it hits/misses), one arrow will be consumed and you will immediately shoot again the next time you stop. So, if someone shoots you with an arrow, you still have about one second to (a) move out of range, or (b) hide behind a wall of stone, the corner of a house, run into a different dungeon level, etc.

Fencing, swords, and maces, are all close quarters weapons, and can only hit someone who is on a tile directly adjacent to you. Fencing weapons are typically fast-swinging and light-hitting, swords weapons have a big range in speed and damage, and maces are typically slower than the other two weapon types. Fencing and sword weapons can be poisoned, while mace weapons drain an additional 3 to 5 stamina from an enemy per successful hit, and have a high chance to damage the armor of an enemy.

Each weapon has a few properties that determine how effective it is in combat. The most basic is it's Hit Points. A weapon is spawned/crafted with a given number of hitpoints. When you hit an enemy with your weapon, it has a chance to lose some of its current hit points. For example, a brand new axe may have 77 hit points, and after a few good hits on an enemy it might randomly drop down to 76 current hit points. Weapons can be repaired by blacksmiths. Upon any repair attempt, the weapon will lose 1 maximum HP. Upon a successful repair attempt, the weapon will have its current HPs restored to its (new) max HPs. For example, an axe with 57 HPs (max of 77) is repaired by a blacksmith. The repair fails. The axe now has 56 HPs out of 76 HPs. A second repair attempt succeeds. The weapon now has a max of 75 HPs, and its current HPs are restored to 75. If a weapon's current HPs reaches 0, it is destroyed. A weapon at 100% of its hitpoints will do 100% of the damage it was supposed to do. A weapon at 1% of its hitpoints will do 50% of its usual damage. There is thus a big incentive to keep weapons repaired.

The second property of a weapon is its speed. You can see the speed of each weapon in the table linked at the top of this post. To determine how quickly a weapon will be swung, use the following formula:
take current Stamina + 100
multiply this by weapon speed
take 15,000 and divide by that number

This gives you the number of "ticks", or .25 second increments, between each swing. Round down to the nearest whole tick. Note that swing speed is capped at 1.25 seconds; you cannot swing any weapon faster than once every 1.25 seconds.

Each time you swing a weapon, the timer begins counting again. When it arrives at the final tick between swings, it will check to see if you are stopped. If you are stopped, you will be able to swing the next time an enemy is in range. So if you are fighting while standing still, the final tick will indeed see you standing still and you will swing when you are supposed to. If you are running and pausing here and there, you will have to stop for a tick (.25 seconds) in order to ready your swing. Note that swing timers for swords, maces, and fencing weapons will not advance while moving, but the timer for archery will advance while moving. Archery however, as mentioned above, requires you to stop to shoot, and stay standing still until the arrow hits. Moving while the arrow is loosed but before it hits will ensure it automatically misses.

Finally, the third aspect of weapons is their damage hit dice. These of course determine the amount of damage a weapon will do on a given swing. On the table linked at the top of the post, you can see most of the weapons have a large range of possible damage. However, this can be deceiving. Since the game is rolling dice to determine the damage, the more dice being rolled will make the damage output more consistent. This is easily understood by looking at what happens when you roll 2d6 (two six-sided dice). Most people know that rolling 1-1 or 6-6 for totals of 2 or 12 are the rarest possibilities. The 12, for example, requires each die to land on a 6. There's a 1 in 6 chance of each of these happening, and 1/6 times 1/6 equals 1/36. So 1 in 36 times you roll 2d6, you will get 12. On the other hand, a rolling a 7... the exact middle... can happen with the following combinations: 1-6, 2-5, 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 6-1. Indeed, there are six ways to roll a 7, so it is six times as likely. In other words... the more dice you roll, the more likely the final result is going to be near the midle of the range.

Let's go back to the weapon table. As you can see, some weapons use just 1 die (war fork) and some use as many as 7 dice (war hammer). So the war fork is going to hit with a lot more variance than the war hammer. It rolls 1d29+3, and is just as likely to land on a total of 4 as it is a total of 18 (average) or 32. On the other hand, for a war hammer to roll its maximum, it is relying on a 1/5*1/5*1/5*1/5*1/5*1/5*1/5 chance, which is a 1 in 78,125 chance. Far more likely is that it will hit near its average (22 damage) almost every time.

Why does this matter? Because against armored players (and monsters that have a natural AR), armor will block a portion of the damage a weapon does.

Here's an example I wrote in another post:
Quote:
Assume you have one weapon that does the exact same damage every time. Like, 20 damage per hit. Every time. And assume another weapon does between 15 and 25, with equal likelihood of each. And assume the target's armor will block 18 damage per hit.

Code:
The first weapon will take 11 swings, and the results will look like this:

20-18=2
20-18=2
20-18=2
20-18=2
20-18=2
20-18=2
20-18=2
20-18=2
20-18=2
20-18=2
20-18=2

So the result is, in 11 swings, it does 2 damage every time for a total of 22 damage punching through.

Now the second weapon does 11 swings, and its result looks like this:

15-18=0
16-18=0
17-18=0
18-18=0
19-18=1
20-18=2
21-18=3
22-18=4
23-18=5
24-18=6
25-18=7

So over 11 swings, it hits on average equally as hard (average of 20 damage), but after the armor modifications, it ends up doing 1+2+3+4+5+6+7= 28 damage.


Since there is a cap on the down side of hits (if you hit for less than 0, you don't "heal" your target, you just do 0), higher variance actually works in favor of the weapons that have high-variance damage possibilities.


As this example shows, having a high-variance weapon is better than a low-variance weapon. And the benefit is increased as the armor levels get higher.

Quote:
Code:
Let's go for another example.  Imagine you are standing next to another player who has some very good armor.  Let's say his armor blocks an average of 36 damage per hit (with super-high-end armor, this can be possible).  You yourself, however, are no slouch, and are swinging a +25 weapon of vanquishing.  Let's say you are standing there for one full minute, swinging away, landing 50% of your swings for hits.  What weapon would you imagine would do the most damage?

The answer is the halberd.  Despite the fact that it is slow as heck, it is only two dice and thus has a pretty varied amount of damage it hits for, so while it will have some hits below 36 damage (which thus do 0 after the armor), it will also have some high-end hits that mostly punch through.

What's next on the list is where it gets surprising.  In fact, the [i]double axe[/i] will have the next highest damage get though.  It uses just one die for its damage roll, so the result is wildly varying damage.  After the double-axe comes the bardiche, which makes sense, but after that is the war fork and the heavy crossbow.  Yes, against a heavily-armored opponent, the war fork does more damage over time than a heavy crossbow!

*note the above was written with old damage values, so things have slightly changed. See data in my post below*

My example uses some high-end weapons and some very high-end armor. Against an unarmored foe, damage is never reduced and thus looking at average damage is just fine. But the more armor an opponent is wearing, the more important damage variance becomes.

There is more I can add later, this is just a rough draft to see what people think of it.

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Last edited by Mikel123 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:05 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:21 pm 
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Good post. Is it confirmed UOSA using the same number as dice as stratics for all weapons?

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:23 pm 
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I have a few questions about wrestling and damage multipliers.

1. What is the weapon speed of a punch?

2. If I have 100 Fencing, Tactics, anatomy, and Strength do I do 216% max damage (100%*150% *120* *120%) or 190% damage (100+50+20+20)%?

3. Cycling time -- could I use wrestling or a spear to shorten the cycling time of a heavy crossbow, just as you can with a halberd?


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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:50 pm 
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Darokgoodnes wrote:
I have a few questions about wrestling and damage multipliers.

1. What is the weapon speed of a punch?

2. If I have 100 Fencing, Tactics, anatomy, and Strength do I do 216% max damage (100%*150% *120* *120%) or 190% damage (100+50+20+20)%?

3. Cycling time -- could I use wrestling or a spear to shorten the cycling time of a heavy crossbow, just as you can with a halberd?

Wrestling speed is 50. You can't cycle crossbow.

I believe dmg is all derived from your base damage, meaning it's 190%... not sure about that though.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:11 pm 
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I calculate damage in my Excel sheet like this:

[(basedmg + GM/ruin/force/vanq modifier)*(Tactics+STR+Anat)]*repaircondition

I am like 80% sure that is the correct way. It has been a long time however since I've repeatedly tested.

As for the dice, I am about 98% sure they are implemented correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Hi Mikel123,

Thank you sir, for the guide - very helpful!

However, this newbie is confused about Katana speed. :?

I have GMd Swordsmanship based on the stratics web page (http://www.uosecondage.com/stratics/arms.html), which lists the Katana as the fastest weapon (with a speed of 58).

The Wiki lists the Kat speed as 48 (http://wiki.uosecondage.com/Weapons). OMG, 10 less!

Somehow I missed seeing the Wiki page until recently... I've been using the stratics page as reference the whole time.

Has something changed? Should we be going by the Wiki page?

Kind regards,
Zelek

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:10 pm 
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Take a Search through the forums and you will see the tired history of the once-famed katana.

Really, the only solid piece of evidence in the entire discussion that refuted the 58 speed was someone who emailed Xena Dragon in 1999 (she forwarded the email to someone here) who tested the # of swings he had with a katana in 60 seconds, which would indicate a speed of about 48.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Mikel, this is an excellent guide!! I'd like to ask a moderator to sticky this guide.

Also, if possible, please complement with what is best vs. unarmored foes, etc. Here I think is where the shortspear will be a beast.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Depends on whether you're standing still with them and just trading hits back and forth, or you're moving around.

If you're chasing someone, it's almost always best to have a hard-hitting weapon, since you'll be catching up to them few and far between, and your slow weapons will have plenty of time to build to your next swing while you run, turn corners, etc.

If you are standing next to someone, forever, with an AR of 0, GM Anatomy and 100 dex, hitting half the time, using a GM weapon you will get:

Kryss 445
Spear (2-H) 437
War Fork 418
Short Spear (2-H) 418
Quarterstaff (2-H) 418
Scimitar 399
Broad Sword 399
Cutlass 399
Katana 371
War Axe 358
*Note this is under the new system in which item durability makes a weapon do 50% to 100% of it's damage (at the moment, it's 75% to 125%).

Now let's talk armor. Again, assume a GM Anatomy, 100 dex, hitting half your swings, standing still against someone whose armor absorbs about 20 damage per hit on average (this probably corresponds to about what GM dexer chain/ring armor will get you, give or take) with a GM weapon:

Halberd(2-H) 137
War Fork 132
Spear (2-H) 125
Double Axe (2-H) 125
Bardiche (2-H) 117
War Hammer (2-H) 106
Kryss 106
Two-handed Axe (2-H) 104
Large Battle Axe (2-H) 103
Battle Axe (2-H) 103

OK last analysis... now let's say a +25 vanq weapon against invulnerable dexer armor (AR loss of 0, so chain/ring/studded as appropriate):

Halberd(2-H) 57
Heavy Crossbow (2-H) 45
Double Axe (2-H) 42
War Fork 37
Bardiche (2-H) 35
Two-handed Axe (2-H) 27
Crossbow (2-H) 25
Large Battle Axe (2-H) 25
Battle Axe (2-H) 25
Bow (2-H) 24
Spear (2-H) 23
Kryss 22

In short, the dice-rolling aspect of the weapons makes weapons with high variance (those with the fewest dice being rolled) being best against foes with a lot of armor, since you pretty much need to get lucky and get a high roll to get any damage through. Mace weapons hit hard on average, but all of their hits are precisely that - average - since they roll so many dice. It's much easier to get a high roll on one die than it is on 5 or 7 dice.

tldr:
war fork rules.
magic armor is going to be much more powerful when the durability adjustment nerfs weapons by 20%.

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Last edited by Mikel123 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:26 pm 
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That totally depends on character makeup.
Fast weapons are good interrupts, Mace weapons make insta-hit quirky at least, impossible at best, and Halbards are good to use for cycling through wrestling timer for the insta-hit.
I know guys who swear by viking swords :? Like I said it totally depends on character makeup and playstyle.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:14 pm 
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Mikel123 wrote:
tldr:
war fork rules.
magic armor is going to be much more powerful when the durability adjustment nerfs weapons by 20%.



thank you for this!

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:23 pm 
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Thnx, good thing I bought all that armor off you then. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:16 am 
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You should edit the part about weapon timers not ticking while moving for non archery weapons, and add in that if the target breaks LOS, an arrow will always miss, but you can move before the shot connects and the next time you stop you will instantly fire. So you don't really lose the shot completely.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:09 am 
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Thanks Matron. I had the moving stuff right, but I edited for the LOS and the next arrow being insta-shot.

Also edited the numeric example of actual weapons to be in a quote, since it's no longer 100% accurate when the repair condition bonus is adjusted in the next patch. That said, the top 5 weapons are still the same, just in a slightly different order.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Based on your posts here... seems to me that the War Fork is a pretty damn good weapon for all around, general purpose, damage. It's in the top 5 of all your examples, it has 1 big die to roll, pretty good spread on damage (read: variance) The Kryss don't look too shabby either.... Am I way off here?

As much as you stress the importance of high damage variance and a single die roll.... the halberd has 2 damage dice... is it such a strong contender because those two dice have such a large variance?

Also, if I'm reading this all right, macefighting weapons are mediocre at best.


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