Suggestion - Make AFK Macroing inside town illegal

[Cutpurse]

How does driving away newbies trying to macro that don't have houses/friends here make the shard "more enjoyable"? I just don't understand this guy's thought process.

[Duke Jones]

How does driving away newbies trying to macro that don't have houses/friends here make the shard "more enjoyable"? I just don't understand this guy's thought process.

We should teach them the joy of playing the game, instead of macroing up their skills. Show them that they can have fun even with low skills. Tell them that gain could, and should come with gameplay.

[Derrick]

There is a potential solution here to alleviate some of the in town macroing that will also improve our era accuracy. Skill gains on OSI were based on polls of available skill points on that subserver; many people training the same skills in the same areas would have reduced gain speeds.

This is something I've been thinking about for some time but have been hesitant to mention, as getting a reasonablby accurate skill gain rate in a new gain system would be very challenging.

[sirrayiv]

How does driving away newbies trying to macro that don't have houses/friends here make the shard "more enjoyable"? I just don't understand this guy's thought process.

You people just don't get it. My suggestion wasn't targeted towards newbies. In fact, I myself don't have a house on this server, and have only been around for about 21 days. BUT I have played UO since its Birth, and I have seen first hand what macroing has done to the game. I think its safe to say that True Newbies don't really know how to macro, so the comment above makes no sense to me. They have no idea what skills they even need for their characters, much less how to raise them.

The reason that I want changes is because in my eyes AFK macroing has always been illegal, and therefore I always deemed players who did it as cheaters. I have always felt like calling the GM's to police these players activities was just glorified tattle telling, and I would rather take matters into my own hands and just kill the pricks. However, why should a cheater be able to report me for murder, when I am just preventing a cheater from cheating?

The problem all of you guys have with my idea is that it directly affects you! Which like I said earlier, if you don't like this idea, then you are probably part of the problem.

Why should I sit back and watch a thief macroing away with his packhorse, when I can stop it? A few days of macroing, and that same thief will be trying to grief me. If your smart about your macroing in the first place, nobody will notice or even care about what your doing.

People back on OSI HAD to be sneaky about their macroing, or they would get reported. Here its so bad, it just feels like a shard full of cheaters. Sure, I have macroed AFK before. I even got so bad as to write some of my own scripts for EasyUO back in the day. And although it made my UO life alot easier, it took away alot of the fun. I sat back and watched people farming resources, and then selling UO gold, until the game lost its luster, not only to me, but to alot of people. I respect the fact that the owners of this Server do not pass out skill balls when a player donates...to me, thats just another way for people to gain an unfair advantage.

Bottom line is, making macroing afk in town would make things appear to be alot closer to the way it was on the OSI shards back in the day. And changing the murder gump to 10 minutes was just a way that I thought of for players like myself to monitor and police the AFK'ing problem without reporting players to the GM's non-stop. It saddens me that the community doesn't see things my way, but ohh well....I still have no problems voicing my opinion....and instead of the idiots making assumptions to my suggestions (which so far are WAY off), it would be nice to see someone who understands where I am on this issue, and has some ideas of their own. (or at least the balls to admit that they agree with me on this)

[Dagon]

"My suggestion wasn't targeted towards newbies"

Ok, so now you're also going to KNOW who's a newbie and who's not... lol. Dude, just drop it while you're ahead (or not, really).

Your entire premise is based on macroing being illegal on OSI, news flash, this is not OSI. As much as this server replicates era accuracy the owner has outright said and made the policy that afk macroing is LEGAL. So your entire "argument" for the change is not going to go anywhere since the policy instituted favors what you want to change.

"I would rather take matters into my own hands and just kill the pricks. However, why should a cheater be able to report me for murder, when I am just preventing a cheater from cheating?"

Because they're not cheating, and you're murdering, so you are reported for murder. Pretty simple concept.

"I think its safe to say that True Newbies don't really know how to macro".. and I'd say that in 99.99% of the cases there's no such thing as a true newbie anyways. Anyone growing up these days isn't going to look for a 10+ year old game to play unless they played it 10 years ago, and even if they are a "true newbie" as you say, it doesn't take long to figure out macroing.

"Here its so bad, it just feels like a shard full of cheaters"
Except that it's not, because it's legal. LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL is not cheating.

You've admitted to macroing, and making easyuo scripts, so you are a cheater also, did you sit there and pk yourself for cheating? No, probably not. Did you feel bad about cheating? No, probably not.

If you like playing without macroing that's good for you.. you can Duke Jones can go get gay married too (sorry Duke!! ) but most people are not going to agree with you on this, not necessarily because they afk macro, but because it's just not important.

AFK macroing is legal, that's the end of the story. You are the only one that feels like this is cheating, even though you've done it yourself. The way YOU feel about something won't really impact anything. If this "cheating" bothers you so much you can be a town killer, although not too often since you'll have to burn off those murder counts, or you can leave. Ok ok, you could also make your main town one that nobody really goes to.. then you won't have to see anyone and your problem is solved (well not solved, since it's a problem in your head that needs to be helped).

[leterrien]

I agree. Make skill gain slower when you are in guarded area. No need to change the gump though.

[Duke Jones]

Dagon. I feel your that your reply was a bit short-sighted and definitely scathing. Also, I agree with the massage sirrayiv is trying to get across.

Ok, so now you're also going to KNOW who's a newbie and who's not... lol. Dude, just drop it while you're ahead (or not, really).

Your entire premise is based on macroing being illegal on OSI, news flash, this is not OSI. As much as this server replicates era accuracy the owner has outright said and made the policy that afk macroing is LEGAL. So your entire "argument" for the change is not going to go anywhere since the policy instituted favors what you want to change.

"Here its so bad, it just feels like a shard full of cheaters"
Except that it's not, because it's legal. LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL LEGAL is not cheating.

The Goal here is to replicate the era. And frankly, the policies during T2A are just as important as the game mechanics.

It seems that alot of people are thinking that just because they played the game 10 or so years ago, they should feel "entitled" to be exempt from non-macro skill gain. And passing this info on how to macro or use Razor to new players, is just degrading the game further.

Alot of issues and problems in the gameplay community presently are the result of the current lack of policy that did exist in T2A. And as this shard grows in player count. These problems are only going to get bigger and uglier.

And just because Derrick said that AFK Macroing isn't illegal NOW, It doesn't mean there is never going to be any possibility of a policy change to closer replicate the are in the future.

However, If Derrick mention's otherwise, I guess I'll shut up about it.

[vkamicht]

Yes please. In this era there were many more players than we have here... and a much lower percentage of those players were AFK. So combine those two things and you have a shard that feels pretty dead compared to what it should be.

[Cutpurse]

Yes, let's make skill gain SLOWER in town.

If people are going to macro -- then they are going to macro.
Slowing down skill gain in town only means people macroing in town LONGER. I don't see how that idea would create less town macroing. Do you think that people would spontaneously have out-of-guard spots to macro if implemented?

I can't believe that people who have obviously macroed themselves are complaining.

If you wanna kill people in town just make a newbie with a katana. Have a GM poisoner deadly poison his kat. Even if they are calling guards in their macro, the poison will get them.

[Dagon]

In this era there were many more players than we have here... and a much lower percentage of those players were AFK.

There was also a lower ratio of pks to other players on OSI than we have here, so something MUST be done about that also!

UOSA ......... free. With 3 or 4 GM's I believe. I don't personally know how often the GM's are on or anything.. but they do it on their own time.

OSI ....... $10/month (might not be current, i'm talking T2A time period) ...... tens of thousands of people paying monthly.... untold number of GM's being paid to be a GM, as their job, not in their free time while also trying to manage a real life.

And you want to implement a policy for macroing and actually have the GM's respond to the calls.....

There's the era that you are trying to replicate with this nonsense. It's not even possible.

[sirrayiv]

Yes, let's make skill gain SLOWER in town.

If people are going to macro -- then they are going to macro.
Slowing down skill gain in town only means people macroing in town LONGER. I don't see how that idea would create less town macroing. Do you think that people would spontaneously have out-of-guard spots to macro if implemented?

I can't believe that people who have obviously macroed themselves are complaining.

If you wanna kill people in town just make a newbie with a katana. Have a GM poisoner deadly poison his kat. Even if they are calling guards in their macro, the poison will get them.

You guys are so ignorant that you make me feel like pulling my hair out. Its like trying to argue with a drunk person. You are too stupid to even comprehend what it is that I am saying, much less the impact of what my suggestion would be to the shard. Yes, I admitted that I have macroed before, and yes I am complaining, but it isn't because I long to kill newbies in town. Let me try one last time to break this down for anyone still reading this thread.

I was under the impression when I started playing on this server that the overal goal of the staff here was to re-create the environment of the second age. "Simply the way it was", I believe was the slogan that caught my eye.

Well, ever since OSI created Trammel and forced me to play a UO that I was hating more and more each day, I started to weigh my alternatives. At first, I had hoped that things would improve, but I quickly realized that they wouldn't. Most of the player base that was around still from the beginning had quit, and the majority of players left were what I referred to as "Trammies".

These people neither understood what Trammel had done to the game, nor did they agree with anyone who preferred the old world. (Felucca)

I personally wasn't one of the players running around red trying to murder people, BUT if somebody was running around talking shit and the situation called for it, I was all over it. I didn't realize how special it was to have the freedom to police ourselves without being forced into a certain type of playstyle.

I spent years building my skills and wealth, meanwhile trying to avoid PK's.
Trammel made a mockery of all my past efforts. Skill gain was changed making once impossible skills like Parrying and Resist, now easy to gain in. All my hard work was basically made worthless overnight. People could now sit and farm for hours worry free from being PK'd. All of the other carebear rules in Trammel quickly turned the economy upside down. People no longer had to worry about being stolen from so they could carry anything in their backpacks without worry ing about losing the items. Players could not be looted if they died, they would not lose stamina when passing through objects, so they had no need for refresh potions, etc...

Due to all of the changes, players wealth skyrocketed overnight. Players homes started selling for millions of gold. Inflation was insane. These newer players had a fraction of the in-game history or knowledge that I had, yet in less than 5 months had more gold than I had acquired in 4 years of playing. And it was all because of the new system.
I hated the changes.....and while I also hated being murdered or stolen from, I then quickly realized just how important murderers were to the overall game. They ensured that nobody could farm for hours on end without being killed and looted. Thieves made sure that if you walked around with valuable items in your backpack, then you were going to lose those items.
The way things were in t2a rewarded the smarter players, while the players who didn't learn from their mistakes suffered repeatedly from their own stupidity.

If you take away all of the Crimes, evil, stealing, murdering, griefing, etc...then what you have left is a shard full of Carebears, fighting over Neon rares, etc...The excitment of being stolen from or murdered was now gone. The focus then became who can acquire the most wealth. And since nobody was dieing, or being stolen from, macroing started getting really bad during this period.

The policy on OSI at this time was that macroing AFK was illegal. If a player was caught doing this, he would be jailed for a first offense, and given a 3 day ban. While any second or third offenses could result in a permenant banning for the account. Well just like a kid that pushes his parents just to see how far he can get before being punished, the UO community pushed the envelope on macroing just to see how far they could get. Once this started happening, OSI was so blood drunk with making a profit, that they were not backing up their own policy. They began milking the game for as much money as they could get out of it. Constantly introducing expansions, offering special items and advanced characters for $$$. As all of this was happening around me, I grew more and more upset.

It was at this time that I started noticing unattended macroing becoming really bad.

[sirrayiv]

OSI made the resources in Felucca double to entice players to spend more time in the "Old lands". I stayed and lived here in the old lands, despite the fact that it was becoming more and more barren with each passing month. I noticed miners who were macroing unattended, gathering ore....I would page GM's, only to see the same miner a day or two later, doing the exact same thing. I started taking matters into my own hands at this point and murdering players who were clearly cheating.

It was during this time, that while I was being reported for murdering cheaters, I came up with the idea of having the murder gump shortened to 10 minutes. Players who are murdered would have 10 minutes to report who murdered them, or lose that right. This would allow player Justice, while preventing players from having to call and report GM's nonstop.

While resource gathering seemed to be a bigger deal than macroers who would just stand around and work on their hiding skill, I would often become offended because even though macroing afk was illegal, some players were becoming so bold, that they would stand in the middle of a bank, and macro for hours. This arrogance offended me so much, that I would go out of my way to kill them, or prevent them from gaining skills. Player Justice is what I called it.

Since there were more people in Trammel, and nobody could be harmed by another player in Trammel, the macroing on that side of the shard was 10 times as worse. I would page GM's all the time when I noticed a blatant cheater, but to no avail...most of the time, the GM's would just log the person out.

Disgusted with how the game was being ruined not only by EA/OSI, but by the new "Trammie" player who actually enjoyed all of the new changes, I walked away from UO for good. (or so I thought)

[sirrayiv]

After being away for years, I discovered free servers...and my love for UO, and the hope that we could re-create the way it used to be got me excited and so I started playing UO again. I tried several different servers, but most of them lacked a player population size large enough to make things fun, and then I found UOGamers HYBRID.

Hybrid has about 900-1000 people on at all times. The server is so full, that finding a spot for a small house is challenging. It seemed to have the perfect balance of everything that I liked about UO, without alot of the crap. However after a few months I started looking for another home to play on, and thats when I found Divinity. Let me explain the differences below...

Hybrid - Large population, the hosts of this server completely redid the spawn map for t2a. I have never seen such a masterful job. There were about 10 different Nightmare locations in t2a. This kept people on the move, constantly looking for Nightmares, and it kept murders busy trying to kill tamers. There were Balrons, and White Wyrms, Lich Lords, Ancient Lichs, Ancient Wyrms, and many other spawn locations all over the map in t2a...The player base responded well to all of this, and you could actually see players at any hour of the day or night, actively running around t2a hunting and etc...

Now to the bad stuff....Skill gain was way too easy on this server. I decided to make a tamer first, so that I could make some gold to support my other characters. I gm'd my taming within 2 nights. By the end of the first week, I was a 7 way GM Mage/bard/tamer.
Once I started playing I noticed that there were murderers everywhere. Reds were allowed to bank in town, and regardless of where you went, there was a group of reds coming through to murder you within five minutes. The entire time I spent on Hybrid, I never once went into a dungeon for longer than 5 minutes without being attacked by a red. The murdering was so wide-spread that I soon realized that there was no penalty for going red. And thus, it seemed like everyone playing on that server had a red character. After all, you could 7 way GM a character very quickly.
I also noticed that people would run around on Ethreal bears, and I learned that through donating money to the server, players were being given some unique items. I even found a Castle on its own island, which had been customed placed into the game out in the middle of the ocean. The only way I knew about it, was I just happen to sail into in one night. Skill balls and stat balls were available for $$$, as well as gold and regs, etc...


While I was having fun, I realized that what I really wanted, was a server that had the same feel as UO did back in the day. Where skill gain was hard, murderers were punished by stat loss if they died. A server where there was no trammel, and macroing was still illegal. A place where you had to earn your skills through hard work, and a server where you couldn't BUY or DONATE $$$ to gain any kind of an advantage or unique item.



Divinty - I started playing on Divinity because it seemed more like what UO had been back in the day. The skill gain was hard as hell, like I remembered it....however there was only about 100 people online at a time. No mounts were allowed on this server, and you could still buy skill and stat balls and gold for $$$, so I decided to keep looking for another server.

[sirrayiv]

Then I saw, "Simply the way it was" and I decided to try thesecondage

I had millions of gold, 3 houses, and a ton of stuff on Hybrid which was hard to walk away from, BUT I wanted to play UO simply the way it was back in the day.

My first day or two I was really excited.....I started noticing things that I had forgotten about. Selling 5 items at a time, and cutting bandages one at a time....haha....the more I played, the more I liked the server.

I have been here for almost a month now, and I am quite happy with everything, however I have noticed that the majority of players are all standing around macroing unattended. This type of crap has aroused my anger all over again, and even though it may be legal here, I was under the impression that the goal of this server was to imitate the way things were back in the day on OSI servers. I applaud Derrick for not passing out special gifts or items for player donations, yet catering to Macroers in fear of players leaving for another server is selling yourself short in my opinion.

Dagon has mentioned that the staff of GM's here are volunteer's and that there are probably only a few, and that my proposed changes would be impossible to implement, however this is why I suggested the 10 minute murder gump in the first place. It is an easy solution to the overall problem. If afk macroing inside a guarded zone were made illegal, then players would still do it, but it would decrease significantly, and for the players who were arrogant enough to still do it, it would allow players like myself to police them without having to take murder counts, or page GM's. I believe this idea is far more realistic and an easy code adjustment, than to implement some sort of player justice arrangement, where a player can "Arrest" somebody who they feel is macroing unattended....

Anyone reading this can quickly see how rediculous this all could become. Of course, there are players like Dagon who read my posts, and try to belittle me because macroing is LEGAL, LEGAL, LEGAL, LEGAL, as he has mentioned to me already. However, macroing has never been legal on OSI servers, it wasn't at the time of the second age, and I am convinced that in order for this server to have that same old school feel to it, then the rules must be identical (within reason) to the rules we were governed by back then.

I am sorry if your reading this, and you disagree, but like I have said earlier.....players who don't agree do so because they see this change as something negative....they are too short sighted to realize the long term implications of what this change would do.
I have played long enough to have seen it all, and a world in where players can police themselves is the best world to be a part of.

If the murder gump is really a big deal, then how about reducing it to 30 minutes instead of 10, or not implementing it at all.

Overall, I am really happy with this server and its staff, I just wish that this were implemented for the sake of mirroring what UO was like back in the day, while the murder gump idea, was just that....it was a suggestion to allow for player Justice without taking up the GM's precious time.

I am now finished, feel free to agree or disagree, but after this lengthy explanation as to how and why I feel the way that I do about this topic, I would appreciate more thoughtful responses, if thats at all possible. ( I know that may be a stretch for some of you)

[Duke Jones]

You know. I respect these posts. Although a bit more frank and militant than I would care to express, I pretty much agree on every level.

Policy is not "The way it was."