Weapon Swing delays and Archery trial on Test Center

[crabjuice]

If this goes into effect it seems like everyone would make a razor macro that just loops "attack last combatant" so no one can ever tab out of combat. This would effect pvp pretty significantly it seems.

This method of auto-defend may have been t2a accurate so you claim, however UO assist programs weren't as advanced as razor and I am pretty sure they didn't have macros for "attack last target" or "attack last combatant" so you had to actually double click there health bar to re-attack them to cause that auto defend. Considering people can make a loop macro to do that with razor now, that would not re-create t2a pvp at all in my opinion, just make it much worse.

[platy]

way to answer a question with a question..
most of 98 is pret2a
autodefend in playguide i thought involved only the 1st time you were attacked (which i understand an autodefend).. not each successive time someone "dbl" clicked you (where do u get this from?)
I can safely assume you have NO documentation on this since your dodging the point of my questions?
(i can assure you if this is how it WAS, it would have been addressed WAY before 03- maybe your just not looking hard enough, or your only looking for confirmation- NOT negation)

[Faust]

Don't tab out and problem solved. There is a reason nobody tabbed out during this era and this is that very reason. UOE had an attack last feature if I remember correctly.

Platy... I've already posted the patch notes when auto defend was revamped earlier in this post. Why do you think I asked if you read the first half? I really wish people would read the thread before jumping to conclusions and begins impulsive posting. Please, read the thread, and you will get the answer you're looking for or the so called documenation that you seek. I suppose I shouldn't always assume that people actually read a thread before posting...

Everyone here needs to look at this in a logical perspective(the same way we do). Auto defend after tabbing out existed during the demo, which pre dates t2a. Auto defend after tabbing out was revamped in patch in '03. Plenty of people remember the feature in '99. Why would it have skipped this era?

[Derrick]

I'd love to see some testing of this to see if it's a problem. I certainly agree that spamming attack last isn't going to be a good thing. We've established that it did work this way, but this is what the test center is for. Increasing packet load is certainly not a good thing either.

[crabjuice]

I don't understand the necessity for additional testing? I tested some on the test center. But I can guarantee that I, and many other players will, make razor macros that loop tabbing out and loop attacking last combatant. If this is implemented why would players make these macros?

[platy]

Don't tab out and problem solved. There is a reason nobody tabbed out during this era and this is that very reason. UOE had an attack last feature if I remember correctly.

This leads me to believe that you did not PVP during the era.. if this is correct, then the term "instahit" is a lie.. since "nobody" ever tabbed during the era. (lol?)
You posted UO:R notes.. as I said: maybe you didn't look hard enough or your just not looking for any info refuting your idea and only looking for notes which agree with it.. I'm asking for notes which state this is how it "worked" not how or when it was "revamped".. your wrong in assuming I didn't read these posts.. assuming ignorance is a horrible trait for a GM (or anyone with power for that matter)...

I guess it boils down to what I've stated previously: You GM's/Dev's will do what you think is right regardless.. BUT I need to go on record saying that the past few months have been VERY bad for people who came here to PVP.. if these weird patches keep coming then eventually Divinity will be a funner shard to play then UOSA (something I never ever EVER thought I'd say)...
Faust when talking to you or asking you questions I literally feel like I'm wasting my time.. you don't answer my questions and act like the answers are in the post: they're not (period)

[platy]

i'd like to know who these "many people who remember this" are..
just tested and spamming tab won't even work against that loop..
when is this to be implemented?

[Arcanus]

I had a reply ready an hour ago or so, but got tied up at work, so some of the points I may be making in this post may be redundant, but here goes:

One should keep in mind that the "attack last" macro didn't even exist until pretty far into the era (http://update.uo.com/design_25.html). It did not exist in UOE. Even when it was first introduced, it was barely ever used, in my opinion; I can't name one dueler in the era from my shard (Napa) who utilized "attack last". People didn't develop the advanced "attack last" and tabbing techniques which are staple of mage PVP today, until much later in UO history.

This "attack last" command opens up the possibility for abuse of the auto-defend functionality, enabling someone on the defense to force their opponent to wrestle and essentially nullify their combos. This is much easier to accomplish than with the traditional manual double-clicking of a person or health bar, as you can bind it to a key, allowing greater mobility and the ability to keep a target cursor up.

What I see happening is mage PvP will suffer, as all someone has to do to nullify combos is to “stick to” their opponent, spam “attack last”, and mini heal. This will frustrate a large portion of the player base.

In summary: I feel the combining of old mechanics with newer client/Razor features creates the possibility for abuse, which degrades the quality of PvP and creates tactics not in the spirit of the era.

[bOmb]

I had a reply ready an hour ago or so, but got tied up at work, so some of the points I may be making in this post may be redundant, but here goes:

One should keep in mind that the "attack last" macro didn't even exist until pretty far into the era (http://update.uo.com/design_25.html). It did not exist in UOE. Even when it was first introduced, it was barely ever used, in my opinion; I can't name one dueler in the era from my shard (Napa) who utilized "attack last". People didn't develop the advanced "attack last" and tabbing techniques which are staple of mage PVP today, until much later in UO history.

This "attack last" command opens up the possibility for abuse of the auto-defend functionality, enabling someone on the defense to force their opponent to wrestle and essentially nullify their combos. This is much easier to accomplish than with the traditional manual double-clicking of a person or health bar, as you can bind it to a key, allowing greater mobility and the ability to keep a target cursor up.

What I see happening is mage PvP will suffer, as all someone has to do to nullify combos is to “stick to” their opponent, spam “attack last”, and mini heal. This will frustrate a large portion of the player base.

In summary: I feel the combining of old mechanics with newer client/Razor features creates the possibility for abuse, which degrades the quality of PvP and creates tactics not in the spirit of the era.

Probably couldnt have said it better. Too many pvp changes have been going on here, and the shards hardly

one year old. Lets just get something people can play with and have fun with, and put it in stone. That

wont discourage new players, and players who have been here for a while.

[Arcanus]

Don't tab out and problem solved. There is a reason nobody tabbed out during this era and this is that very reason. UOE had an attack last feature if I remember correctly.

My opinion is that nobody tabbed out back in the era because there was no "attack last" macro for a large portion of T2A, and even when it did get introduced, people didn't "catch on" or utilize it. No attack last macro makes it so that you have no way of attacking someone with a precast spell when you're tabbed out, unless you drop the spell to double click the person. People used to move away from their opponent, cast a spell, and hope to equip their weapon before they would waste their insta-hit on a punch.

I strongly believe this feature did not exist in UOE. I used the program very extensively back in the day, exploring every feature, creating hundreds of macros...hell, I even made my own "themed" profiles in UOE's speech replacement feature, like one to turn everything I said into "1337 speak" or "Olde English". I do not recall an "attack last" macro in UOE.

[Derrick]

Probably couldnt have said it better. Too many pvp changes have been going on here, and the shards hardly

one year old. Lets just get something people can play with and have fun with, and put it in stone. That

wont discourage new players, and players who have been here for a while.

I agree with this too. We need badly to get this set in stone. I'm also very much in agreement that the autodefend could be a huge problem.

For the record. Faust is not a GM, and Devs do listen. I didn't initiate the discussion of these changes, players did, and I'm certainly listening, this is a responce to months of listening on combat timers and most of the changes in this proposal have been widely discussed in other threads over the past few weeks. This only thing that is being newly discussed here is auto defend.

The beginnings of this correction to the swing timer began here:
Subject: Patch 64 - Oct 9, 2008

Theres much other talk on archery somewhere

[platy]

Arcanus your right there was no attacklast feature during the era..
BUT that doesn't mean there wasnt a way of getting instahits by equipping.
The tactic I used to get my instahits was the following:
debuff (using curse mostly)
then I would TAB (yes, I tabbed during era.. and was taught to do so by my PVPing friends)
then I would cast explosion
I would hold the explosion for 2+ seconds (making the next spell I casted "fastcast" if you will)
I would target the spell with my cursor while holding down my lightning spell macro (held it down before I targeted so I would cast immedietly)
I would get the cursor up for the lightning BEFORE the explosion hit my target
I would equip my weapon as soon as the cursor for lightning was brought up
As SOON as the explosion hit the char I would untab with a hally in my hand
and viola: i get an instahit hally at the exact time my explosion dropped and still had a lightning precasted..

[Faust]

I don't know how many times I have to state that I am not a GM... I requested not to have an account above anything but a player. I help Derrick program code for the shard and do research.

Platy, go back and read post #10 in the second thread. I clearly explain how it works. There are no clear notes on how exactly this works as for just about EVERY other function in UO. However, if you want to see how it works log on the demo. I don't know how many times I have to reiterate this. I've already stated the evidence that this in fact existed. There is no need to deny it.

There are legitimate questions that can be raised on this issue. However, it is nothing that we can't handle. There are many ways to remove the ability to spam this feature that we are already looking into. I don't see it becoming a huge problem.

Platy, running up to someone and making them wrestle was probably one of the best counter measures an individual used during t2a. I don't think anyone should be trying to degrade anyone's pvp credentials that isn't even familiar with this tactic.

Also, the positive feedback that we have received from this update has been overwhelming compared to the negative. People are in fact tired of this "katana to hally" crap that never existed during the era. Many of the combos and tactics used back then that people remember are now in fact possible unlike on the current UOSA system.

[platy]

demo is pret2a, how many times do i have to reiterate this
sorry for confusing GM with forummod/dev/whatever you call yourself
so your recreating the demo not t2a now?
i never said you can't pvp: i said i don't beleive you when you say you did pvp in era.
that positive feedback has nothing to do with the problem at hand..
again i'm wasting my time talking to you: your not even talking about the same problem I am..
i'm done with this back and forth crap..
there's nothing i can do about it so i'll just join BloodyBandage and take a permanent hiatus from these pointless forums asap..

[Faust]

I honestly don't know what you're trying to say platy... How auto defend works on the test server worked the same way from the demo, t2a, UOR, and up to AOS. I've already posted the proof of the change in a previous post in this thread. What exactly are you trying to point out by saying that now we're trying to re-create the demo? Do you not realize the demo is before t2a? If something existed during the demo and has proven to exist up until a patch way past t2a common sense tells you that it existed in between. T2A was in between '98 and '03... I don't know if I'm possibly missing something in platy's post, but if someone else understands please post what he means. I am really confused after reading this last past.