Stealing, newbified and blessed items ^^

[Mens Rea]

Due to recent events (viewtopic.php?f=26&t=31495) it is time to point out the inaccuracy with stealing, newbified and blessed items:

1) Newbified and blessed items stayed in your pack when you died even if they were in subcontainers in your pack.

2) If you had a newbified or blessed item in a subcontainer, the subcontainer could not be stolen by normal stealing - only random stealing (with all of the regular riders such as weight, etc).

Currently UOSA is inaccurate in this regard - blessed items and newbified items such as spellbooks stay in the subcontainer upon death, and bags with blessed/newbified items can be directly targetted by stealing - this is not how it was.

I had a thief in the era and remember an incident of spamming in caps to paraspam a guy, rather than kill him, until my random steal got their pack with 2 pairs of blessed sandals. If he died, all was lost because the sandles would have stayed with him. Currently if you have, for instance, blessed sandals or a newbified spellbook, and it is in a subcontainer then it will stay in the subcontainer upon death. This is NEA and should be addressed.

usually they stay with you if you die, and cannot be looted. They can only
be stolen if they are in a container in your backpack, and the container
gets stolen with a random steal. They will be with you when you even if
they were within a container on you when you died.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... dbdcc69b81

Just don't put the deed within a container in your pack, because if they
container gets stolen via a random steal, its contents will too. It will
come back to you if you die with it on you inside a bag.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.game ... a334ae353c

No, because OSI has said (check update.uo.com for past notices) that ANY
blessed or newbie item stored in a subcontainer CAN be stolen. This
isn't a bug, it's a feature.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.game ... 70df6a4d74

They are blessed in any container with respect to staying on your corpse
after death, but if they are in a container and a thief does a random
steal, he can steal the item. Same goes for all newbified items.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.game ... 4b1b679767

[iamreallysquall]

or we can just go back to when deeds were target stealable and when you snooping didn't break stealth if we want to fix stealing / thiefs

[Telamon]

.

[Jack of Shadows]

Telamon is right. You were able to steal 2ndary packs. And I'm all for making house deeds steal-able and getting rid of that stupid snooping while stealth revealing you crap. Unnerf the thief already, geeze.

[Telamon]

.

[Mens Rea]

There is nothing to show that the behaviour changed between T2A and the 2000-2001 discussions and this is consistant with my recollection.

The current behaviour is inaccurate, and if you want to correct me with the "rule books etc" then please go ahead. Quoting "99% of UOSA players" is not a reliable source for this.

Newbified items in a subcontainer meant you couldn't steal it unless it was using random stealing, and newbified/blessed items in a subcontainer upon death meant that the blessed/newbified items would be on you when you ressed.

This is not trammel - this is real, earthly T2A behaviour and I invite you to disprove this.

[Pied Piper]

Dude are you trippin over a pair of ingame "pretend land" sandals that hard!? The same guy that scammed tons of ppl out of 4th of July hats?

I can make some sandals out of leather and you can pretend they are blue. Same crap. All you would have to do is tell everyone you meet to pretend they are blue too.....then *BaM* pretend land blue sandals.

Heck if you want them blessed just sneeze....

[Mens Rea]

Think of poor Nerull the orc who lost his GFed blessed tribal mask in similar circumstances and think of the newbies who put their spellbooks into pouches and bags thinking they are well organised...

I have noticed this inaccuracy for a while, and it seems like the right time to bring it up.

What if it was my neon greens...

[Mens Rea]

The Gifts
All of the gifts are blessed. They cannot be looted or stolen. As with all blessed items it is important to leave the item in your main backpack. Placing a blessed gift in a container inside your backpack will make the item susceptible to thieves as they can steal the container with the blessed item inside.

http://update.uo.com/design_54.html

Note that even in 1999 when the CBD first came out, OSI did not warn of "leaving the items in your main pack because they will stay in a subcontainer" they warned specifically of thieves stealing the subcontainer. The reason for this is because blessed items would still be in your pack if you died, otherwise they would have mentioned it like they mentioned the risk of the item being stolen.

[Stuck]

Note that even in 1999 when the CBD first came out, OSI did not warn of "leaving the items in your main pack because they will stay in a subcontainer" they warned specifically of thieves stealing the subcontainer.

I'm not sure about the hard evidence, but from what I've seen, UO mechanics tend to go from primitive to complex over time, not complex to primitive. What else did OSI not warn about? OSI was never very good about hand-holding.

(edit: A better way to put it might be that mechanics tend to go from non-trammie to trammie over time, not the other way around.)

[Mens Rea]

Indeed - however this does not really change the argument, nor my recollection, nor the posts I could find in 2000 which support this. Find something, post a link and I'll take a look with an open mind.

[Kaivan]

Regarding the original points of this thread, the information has been partially confirmed. Testing on both the demo and live OSI servers confirms that upon death, a player's blessed items will be returned to them upon resurrection. However, testing shows that no additional restrictions apply when a blessed item is placed inside of another pack, and the pack is directly targeted with stealing. Beyond that, while some newsgroup postings do suggest that the process requires that the theft is random, others don't (which is a significant piece of information to leave out, considering it's relevance). Also, at least one newsgroup post suggests that stealing a bag directly is considered an effective method. This newsgroup post has a detailed explanation of the process for scams which includes a description of using a bag to circumvent the blessed properties of items. While it doesn't overtly state that the thief will directly steal the backpack, the context of the entire post surrounds the use of the technique for a scam, meaning that a direct theft is necessary for the scam to be effective. This implies that direct theft is not only possible but necessary.

In addition to the newsgroup post, the old OSI scam prevention article (last updated on July 19, 2002) makes the following statement:

• Keep blessed items in the top level of your pack

Newbie items and blessed items cannot be looted or stolen; however, bags can be. If you place your newbie items or blessed items in a bag, someone can simply nab the bag through the use of the stealing skill, taking your blessed items with it! Keep these items in the top level of your pack (the main backpack window) and they'll stay safe.

Again, as with the newsgroup post, an effective scam cannot rely on random theft.

At this point, without some pretty concrete evidence, the newsgroup posts that purport that random stealing was necessary to steal blessed items seems incorrect, but all available evidence suggests the first point is correct.

[iamreallysquall]

on blessed items when can we see "all blessed items" breaking?

[Mens Rea]

Hey Kaivan,

Thanks very much for the further information on the matter.

I am glad to have pointed this out to avoid the future inaccurate loss of newbified/blessed items for people who would not have lost the items in similar circumstances during T2A.

It seems that the only information which goes against point "1)" on the original post is this piece of information from Telamon:

In the T2A era items in packs were not protected. Base pack only. I would quote patch notes, rules book etc. But 99% of the UOSA players know this.

Telamon, could you please quote patch note, rules books etc with the information you have that suggests otherwise? I think it's best if all the relevant information is put in this thread, and you say that you have some?

Regards

Mens Rea

[dren]

As far as I can see, no one has provided any real significant evidence one way or the other from in era. All the posts posted are from 2000-2002 which is past the cut off date. This argument is pretty moot. If you're going to post on the Suggestions in Era Accuracy forum you should include evidence from in era that actually backs up your point.

Granted there may be a small number of inaccuracies on this server, but it seems to me like you are upset that you made a mistake and you're trying to alter the mechanics of the game to suit your idiocy. As far as I remember in the T2A era full spellbooks not in the main pack dropped upon death. While this was 12 years ago I'm not going to put a lot of my faith in that memory. However, Mens Rea you might consider that your memory is not correct either. The rules here aren't going to change just because you're sad you lost some sandals.

Don't you have enough trammel already? Perhaps its justice that you actually lost your pair of era accurate sandals to a common newbie mistake. Why don't you just put on a pair of your neon sandals instead with an ice white hat and stop whining.