Afk resource gathering of reagents, "What is a resource?"

[ScoobyDoO]

I don't understand why you don't understand what Kaiven is saying to you, he is simply saying, it cost you $$$$ and a lot of it to buy these regs. Technically, these regs still have the same value even after they are bought and there is no gaurentee you can flip the regs for a profit. Some people are lazy (Raises hand) and would just prefer to buy regs in bulk as it saves me time hitting shop after shop then unloading at bank until I got what I need. Lumberjacking/Mining/Fishing takes absolutely 0 investment to obtain those resources so say you mined the whole day and went and died with all those ingots on you and got looted, you didn't lose any $ at all, all you lost was a whole lot of time. It's up to the customer to dish up a little bit more $ to get that bulk deal. Like Kaiven is saying, it's just exchanging gold but with a small fee attached for the fact that he was able to get his regs in bulk. I see no problem at all with AFK buying regs, seriously, who cares.

[Kaivan]

So I can AFK gather anything I can sale on a vendor in front of my house? No new gold is being created only transfered to me.

No. Unlike purchasing reagents which requires you to make an investment (and thus removes gold from the game), gathering resources while AFK gives you a direct line to extra gold that doesn't involve other players and thus creates new gold. This is not possible with reagents, nor is it possible with scrolls.

This is simply not true. Mining and lumberjacking do not produce a "direct line" to extra gold any more than reagents do. Both must be crafted into a sellable item, or sold to another player to be turned into gold.

They most certainly do. In fact, that is the most direct like of producing gold short of just just making it appear by speaking a command. Also, gold exchanged from one person to another does not produce any new gold.

The only difference is that players must spend gold to buy reagents.

Which is why it is treated differently. Spending gold on a vendor, is not producing new resources.

I see no reason to defend a way that people can not play the game at all, and reportedly make 50k a day (without multiple scribes) doing nothing more than saying "vendor sell" to NPC's. Are you worried that some people might be unhappy if they could no longer make gold in this way?

Players must still be at the keyboard in order to sell to the vendors, just the same as a player must be at the keyboard to mine for ingots or chop wood. The difference is in where we prevent the AFK action to take place, as a result of the necessary investment.

You seem to be drastically minimizing the effect of NPC scroll selling, and yet, when I visit mages it seems they have PILES of sold scrolls, often the same ones, in mass quantities (not simply from PVM or t-maps). It's not like no one is doing it, in fact, it's being done in large quantities, on a consistent basis.

I'm not minimizing the effect of NPC scroll selling, and the point I've been trying to make is that we have a rule against doing that while AFK, it's just a different rule. The fact that this also includes buying reagents is meaningless as the purchase of reagents doesn't produce a direct path to extra gold, it is a cost.

[Elph]

The rule for selling applies to all trades.

The rule for gathering only applies to non-inscription crafting.

The act of gathering non-reagents from "nature" does not produce gold. Selling crafted items from them does. Same with inscription. There is nothing more or less direct about obtaining gold in either case.

The only difference is that players pay for reagents.


So what this argument boils down to is that because players pay for the reagents, they are allowed to AFK gather them. While this is a distinction that can be put in the rules, how is it good for the server? How is it something that ought to be protected? How, exactly, does it keep people here or make the server better?

I would argue that it is nothing more than an easy way for players with a lot of gold and stable footing to fund their playtime without doing anything. If this is a good thing, then so be it (although I'd like to see why anyone would think so).

[Elph]

Technically, these regs still have the same value even after they are bought and there is no gaurentee you can flip the regs for a profit.

Not true. Look up the threads about scroll selling, then go look at a mage vendor and see how common it is.

[Kaivan]

The rule for selling applies to all trades.

The rule for gathering only applies to non-inscription crafting.

The act of gathering non-reagents from "nature" does not produce gold. Selling crafted items from them does. Same with inscription. There is nothing more or less direct about obtaining gold in either case.

The only difference is that players pay for reagents.

The resources themselves can be sold directly to vendors at a profit that cannot be realized by just purchasing reagents. Despite the fact that it is not the most efficient way to acquire gold (a much higher profit margin would be realized by crafting something and then selling it), the fact that it exists is what the rule addresses.

So what this argument boils down to is that because players pay for the reagents, they are allowed to AFK gather them.

Yes, because our rule addresses producing new gold while AFK, which cannot be done strictly by purchasing reagents, or even with minimal processing. Reagents must be combined with another resource that must also be purchased, and then crafted into something that can then be sold to a vendor. This entirely indirect and involved process places reagents and scrolls into an entirely different category, and is dealt with using a different rule.

[Pirul]

I think I see where the problem is here.

We seem to be missing what Kaivan, Scooby and myself have been trying to explain.

When you mine you get ore in your backpack from the ground in exchange for....? nothing! When you chop a tree you get logs in you backpack in exchange for...? You can simply smelt the ore into ingots and use your dagger to make boards and go sell those to NPC's which will put gold in your back pack.

See where I'm going with this? Not yet? Let me try to illustrate it:

Nothing -> Ore -> Ingot -> Non-Player Character Gold (gold previously non-existent in the economy)

You have effectively created gold that didn't exist in the economy before from nothing!!!

When you buy a reg, a reagent is placed in your backpack and gold is taken from it. You then place the reg on a vendor (which has a cost we'll continue to ignore for the time being) and another player spends HIS gold to buy it. Therefore:

Gold -> Reagent -> Player Character Gold (gold already existing in the economy from a player who went out and killed a dragon)

Tell me how, or where new gold is being introduced into the economy from the above process?

[Elph]

Inscription.

A simple fix for both would be scripting vendors to not accept a certain amount of the same item. This would prevent mass scroll selling as well as mass commodity selling.

[Light Shade]

I fully understand the reasoning that Kaivan is using here, but I think that's ignoring the real issue...in all fairness.

Whether money is created or transferred is entirely irrelevant.

Should someone get a monetary reward, above and beyond those actually playing the game, by not actually playing the game?

[Mikel123]

It is hard to debate the current rule, because it is (a) black-and-white (as defined), and (b) completely arbitrary with respect to what "problem" it chooses to combat.

Personally, I'd offer a separate rule which would fit the same (a) and (b) criteria.

No AFK macroing in which PC movement occurs (whether by taking steps, Recalling, Gating, Teleporting, or anything else I'm forgetting).

This addresses what I think are the objections people tend to have (AFK mining, reagent buying, scroll-selling, rare-scavenging), creates no dichotomy between things that "make wealth" and "transfer wealth", and also allows the continued use of macroing that most people tend to support: character skill gain.

I'd also argue that such a rule would be equally easy to enforce as the current rule(s).

Code: Select all

If (SuspectedMacroer moves)
    Say("Are you there?")
    If(""), BANHAMMER!
    Else Say ("Have a lovely day")
End If

[Light Shade]

I agree with, and support, Mikel123's idea.

[azheman]

Let me respond to this thread, as it is probably directed at me (currently).

I invest tons and tons of gold on buying these regs in hopes that people will buy them.

I also spend tons of gold letting these massive amounts of regs sit on a vendor waiting for someone to buy them.

My profit margins are actually very low.

Compare that to the tons of recall miners that are able to get ingots for practically nothing (a few recall regs, shovels) and are able to sell ingots by the thousands at 7-8gp per, without the cost of using a vendor.

You are welcome to join me in reg buying, as it is within the rules clearly as Kaivan has stated many different ways.

I doubt you are willing to invest as much and take as much risk.

Also, feel free to buy ingots from NPC shops AFK and sell them to players for a mark up. All you have to do is a create a market for the higher price.

[chainsoar]

tears

[azheman]

I also forgot to add, I am helping newbs who would like to sell scrolls and wands to the NPC mages.

[Kaivan]

I fully understand the reasoning that Kaivan is using here, but I think that's ignoring the real issue...in all fairness.

Whether money is created or transferred is entirely irrelevant.

Should someone get a monetary reward, above and beyond those actually playing the game, by not actually playing the game?

I certainly understand what you're getting at with this, but I think that trying to address this question fairly leads you to the conclusion that all AFK macroing of any kind should be forbidden, due to the fact that some monetary reward is derived at some point from AFK macroing of any type. I'll be frank and say that it would be nice to have this, although enforceability and intrusion into player interactions is something we want to avoid.

Anyway, I'm out for the night.

[Elph]

Macroing ItemID/Hiding/Armslore/Healing/Wrestling/Tactics/Meditation/Stealth/Snooping/Stealing/Veterinary/TasteID/etc AFK is a far cry from macroing reagent buying.

To the person who made the argument about player vendor sales, this is not the issue. The issue is being able to turn them over instantly when sold as scrolls to NPC mage vendors.