Double Hit Decipher:

Topics related to Second Age
User avatar
Faust
Posts: 6247
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm

Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Faust »

I discovered some interesting information involing the old double hit feature a couple weeks ago that I have been trying to dicipher. However, I still can't seem to come up with any logical explanation for it. The web site with the explanation of the double hit was on a Japanese web site making it that much more harder to explain.

Here is the description of the double hit feature listed on the web site.

1999.10 Asuka Duel - http://www.reddeer.bz/oz_uohistry.htm wrote:2Hit-Attack
Delayが溜まった状態で武器を装備すると、その装備した武器のDelayが溜まり始める。そのDelayが溜まってしまうと始めに溜めた分が失われるのだが溜まる前に相手と隣接すれば始めに溜めた分のDelayが消化され、武器装備してから溜めたDelayが残る状態となる。残りのDelayを溜めれば2回連続で攻撃できるのだ。(Delayを溜めてからHAL装備>1回脱着を行う>HALのDelayを4.0とすると3.8ぐらいまで溜める>相手と隣接しHALを振る>0.2秒立ち止まりDelay溜める>再度HALを振る)という流れ。ただ、HALみたいに遅い武器だと実戦向けではない。(使用したのは開幕の時ぐらい)Delay2.0~2.5ぐらいの武器で効果を発揮する上級テクニック。


I have generated three translations of this portion that come up with relatively the same results.

Translation One wrote:2Hit-Attack
When the weapon is equipped when 2Hit-Attack Delay has accumulated, that Delay of the weapon which is equipped starts accumulating. When the Delay accumulates, the amount which is accumulated to beginning is lost, but is, before if accumulating, it adjoins with the partner, Delay of the amount which is accumulated to beginning to be digested, after the weapon equipping, it becomes a state where Delay which it accumulates remains. If remaining Delay is accumulated, it can attack with 2 continuations. After (accumulating Delay, when HAL equipment >1 >HAL where it removes and re-installs it designates Delay as 4.0, >0.2 which it accumulates to about 3.8 and > to adjoin with the partner shakes HAL second halting Delay accumulates > HAL is shaken for the second time) with the flow which is said. Simply, when it is the HAL likely slow weapon, it is not for encounter. (As for using about when commencing) the upper-class technique which shows the effect with the weapon about of Delay2.0~2.5.


Translation Two wrote:2Hit-Attack
Delay and equip a weapon in, equipped with weapons that Delay start. Delay the beginning of the next opponent if before it is lost in the first minutes would have been digested Delay, Delay from weapons and equipment will remain state. Delay the rest of you can attack two times in a row. (Delay HAL equipment from the accumulated 1 to desorption times> HAL of the Delay 4.0 to about 3.8 and> the next wave of opponents HAL> 0.2 seconds Delay stopped> again shake HAL) flow. However, HAL is for the actual game is like a slow weapon. (I use around the time of the season) Delay2.0 ~ 2.5 Advanced Techniques in effective arms about.


Translation Three wrote:2Hit-Attack
When the weapon is equipped when 2Hit-Attack Delay has accumulated, that Delay of the weapon which is equipped starts accumulating. When the Delay accumulates, the amount which is accumulated to beginning is lost, but is, before if accumulating, it adjoins with the partner, Delay of the amount which is accumulated to beginning to be digested, after the weapon equipping, it becomes a state where Delay which it accumulates remains. If remaining Delay is accumulated, it can attack with 2 continuations. (After accumulating Delay, HAL equipment >1 when >HAL where it removes and re-installs it designates Delay as 4.0, it accumulates to about 3.8 > to adjoin with the partner, >0.2 where it shakes HAL second halting Delay it accumulates > it shakes HAL for the second time,) with the flow which is said. Simply, when it is the HAL likely slow weapon, it is not for encounter. (As for using about when commencing) the upper-class technique which shows the effect with the weapon about of Delay2.0~2.5.


The third is translated from dictionary.com making it the most reliable and more understandable out of three in my opinion.

My dilema is quite simple. I never used this bug or feature whatever you wanted to call it back then since using a weapon cycle, insta hit refresh, or what the Japanese call a "zero delay" was more consistant for duels. This same feature that I argued non-stop to be implemented here is also mentioned on this same web site furthering the credibility of that feature. That feature isn't what this post is about though. We know that is a hundred percent accurate now without a doubt.

I am mainly trying to pin point exactly how the double hit exploit worked from everyone here that may have used it or know something about it. Hopefully someone here can provide some more information or a logical perspective behind the feature that I can't seem to come up with.

Discuss

User avatar
Hemperor
UOSA Subscriber!
UOSA Subscriber!
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Hemperor »

Yet another neat, hard to do feature from the era that razor will just exploit. Nice find though
Image

[22:26] <ian> why am i making 3750 empty kegs
[22:27] <ian> 1125000 for 3750 empty kegs
----------------------------------------
[10:44] <ian> a good cat is a dead cat

User avatar
MatronDeWinter
UOSA Donor!!
UOSA Donor!!
Posts: 7249
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:35 am
Location: 你的錢包

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by MatronDeWinter »

reading this makes my head hurt. Is it something along the lines of holding a weapon to get a swing, equipping and swing with another weapon?

equip:kat-wait-equip:hally-Hit-equip:kat-wait-equip:hally-Hit ?

tekai
UOSA Donor!!
UOSA Donor!!
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:11 am

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by tekai »

Wouldnt this really really really really unbalance the playing field?

If a hally mage uses explo potions your pretty much dead in 8 seconds if they make thier hit anyway. Are you really asking for another increase to the hally mage? dexers would be all but useless. Also wasnt this mechanic fixed at some point prior to the end of t2a? From all the information in the last few week, it really seems like were going for end of era mechanics.
[broken image]

UnknownLord
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by UnknownLord »

My mate was telling me this on skype about 6 months ago. He said him and his cousin went around basicly insta kill pking with this. I think it went somthing like this. "You attack a player and wait for 9 seconds without being forced to punch "they have 9 seconds to escape, unless para'd. After 9 seconds "i think", you run in, hit them, grab the hally from your paperdoll then place in your hands again asap for a double hit "pickup and drop". 2 players do this and hit all 4 times, insta dead. But now with razor, if you find somone without pouches.. lame.

IMO, if thats how it would work.. whole shard would quit with this inplace.
-D- Dreadlord XII

User avatar
Faust
Posts: 6247
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Faust »

tekai wrote:Wouldnt this really really really really unbalance the playing field?

If a hally mage uses explo potions your pretty much dead in 8 seconds if they make thier hit anyway. Are you really asking for another increase to the hally mage? dexers would be all but useless. Also wasnt this mechanic fixed at some point prior to the end of t2a? From all the information in the last few week, it really seems like were going for end of era mechanics.


Using this tactic was extremely hard from what I have heard. We had a double hit bug implemented here several months ago. However, it could not have been the real version of it at all since the equip delay made it un-doable once it was implemented here. Again, doing a regular insta hit refresh or weapon cycle was much more consistant than attempting a double hit with a hally. This is why most people used that feature instead the majority of the time. The same would apply here besides those that actually wanted to attempt this one. Also, this shard is not about trying to "balance" the playing field here. We are here to re-create the playing field that existed in UO '99.

UnknownLord wrote:My mate was telling me this on skype about 6 months ago. He said him and his cousin went around basicly insta kill pking with this. I think it went somthing like this. "You attack a player and wait for 9 seconds without being forced to punch "they have 9 seconds to escape, unless para'd. After 9 seconds "i think", you run in, hit them, grab the hally from your paperdoll then place in your hands again asap for a double hit "pickup and drop". 2 players do this and hit all 4 times, insta dead. But now with razor, if you find somone without pouches.. lame.

IMO, if thats how it would work.. whole shard would quit with this inplace.

Unknown that sounds like it would trigger the equip delay if I am reading what you wrote correctly.

People have to remember the equip delay when analyzing all of this which is also mentioned inside of the article above. Read the comment that says "When the weapon is equipped when 2Hit-Attack Delay has accumulated, that Delay of the weapon which is equipped starts accumulating. When the Delay accumulates, the amount which is accumulated to beginning is lost" in the above article. This clearly describes the equip delay stating that when you equip a weapon the delay accumulates and the previous one is lost, which is exactly how it works on the demo and modern UO.

When you equip a weapon with an active weapon delay in the t2a era it would reset your weapon delay according to the weapon you just equipped. For example, if you have ANY delay at all hypothetically sitting at one second(doesn't matter what it is just as long as there is an active weapon delay) when you decide to equip a hally, it would reset that delay according to what that delay would calculate too if it had swung at that very moment. The equip delay has existed from the very beginning of UO being patched in a little after the game was released.

I know the equip delay plays a key role into this tactic, but in a coding stand point it's hard for me to collaborate all of this in a logical perspective when including the already known functions of weapons that existed such as the equip/unequip delay.

UnknownLord
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by UnknownLord »

well yea, all i remember is him talking about para and picking up his hally from paperdoll after a period of time for a double hit. He said this was a bug ingame and was later changed after more people used it, Since staff didn't know at the time. Again, he told me this when was when i was playing Div. "6+ months ago.
-D- Dreadlord XII

User avatar
Faust
Posts: 6247
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Faust »

I have not been able to pin point the location for when this bug was fixed yet. However, I know that it was well after the UOR publish for sure though. This tactic was used early on by the hally mages that didn't switch templates immediately after the UOR publish too. Here is an article over at Spleens talking about using it mid-late '00.

I agreed not to use magic on him, so (while running around and dodging his gay blade) I tell him that I am sticking to what I agreed to, that I can't use magic on him, but I will on myself. He says something like "u will die anyway" and the fight is on. I put on reactive armor and put my hally on, timing it just right. <CRACK - CRACK> The dipshit almost dies from a carefully planned doublehit, and bolts for town and safety.

Reference: http://www.spleens.net/kalvasflam.htm


I'm still surprised that the Japanese were so advance with their pvp tactics compared to the U.S shards. There are not many U.S guides describing many of the common tactics at that time that many actually did know about such as myself. There are also still a lot of U.S players that still don't seem to realize some of these tactics existed even to this very day. This is probably based on a lot of the free shard effect though.

Here is a video on a Japanese shard that "claims" to use the "double hit" bug that existed so long ago...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn_2_F9s ... annel_page

There are some major flaws in this shard's combat system that are more than ovious. For example, the weapon timer elapses on the move like so many other poorly designed pre:uor shards before it. The person in this video hits with a hally, unequips, and re-equips the hally hitting and waiting for a brief 0.5-1.0s with the hally still in hand for another swing to occur in the very first fight. This looks awfully a lot like the description in the Japanese article above. However, I am still failing to figure out how this can be done logically...

The previous theory conducted by Kaivan involved the prep delay that was implemented with the insta hit patch in February '99 that happens before a swing delay ends. When you equip a weapon there is a slight pause before the weapon is allowed to swing being estimated at around one tick(0.25s). Let's say there is a hally delay of 5 seconds... His theory was that if you equipped a hally in between 4.75 and 5.0 the prep time would be included and the swing wouldn't register until after it had cooled down allowing two hits to take place. The problem with this theory falls back to the equip delay problem... If you equip the weapon before the 5 seconds ends the equip delay will take place resetting that delay back to 5 seconds... That was the way it worked here before the equip delay was added for accuracy anyways.

Someone could argue that the equip delay may very well not calculate until after the prep time but that would not matter in this situation. If you equipped the weapon in between 4.75-5.0s the prep time of 0.25 applies... The equip delay doesn't calculate until the end of the 0.25s in this case. However, you would still swing soon as the timer ended at 5 seconds re-applying the standard weapon delay of 5 seconds. By the time the prep time ended to check for an equip delay it would still see a delay being active resetting it in this situaton too...

User avatar
Hemperor
UOSA Subscriber!
UOSA Subscriber!
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Hemperor »

I have watched that video many times for a long time now, and long ago I noticed all the comments from people saying "Double hally hit! Haven't seen that in so long!" etc. The fact that there is such small documentation on such an awesome move leads me to believe that it was very hard to perform, which is just a worry with me because of Razor already allowing noobs to perform otherwise next to impossible pvp moves.

Very interesting though, I'll certainly be looking into this as much as possible...Kind of sad that are shard isn't so diverse though, mostly North Americans here and not a single Japanese guy to tell us what it means!
Image

[22:26] <ian> why am i making 3750 empty kegs
[22:27] <ian> 1125000 for 3750 empty kegs
----------------------------------------
[10:44] <ian> a good cat is a dead cat

User avatar
Faust
Posts: 6247
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Faust »

No matter how the situation turns up it's not going to be worth it in the field or probably even a regular duel. The reason this would be the case is based on the movement restriction to the timer. This provides an efficient counter tactic to the double hit exploit. No matter what a double hit can only take place while standing still. The only people that would fall victim to this would be those that stand non-stop next to their opponent. This may actually be a good tactic to use for those that hug their opponents spamming attack last.

I actually see the double hit exploit being more devestating when used by a dexer. The ability to swing faster allows more chances to make contact with the bug, and the fact that a dexer would be able to concentrate more on using it making it that much better. Mages have to concentrate on spells and combos including their weapon. These factors are at a much lesser degree when it comes to a dexer.

UnknownLord
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by UnknownLord »

That guy is awesome. Id love pvp like that here, with ma, harm, mini heal etc.. but yea. Too bad we have "prep eb then hally" pvp instead. I still dont get how he used the double hit so fast though.
-D- Dreadlord XII

Mr.T
Posts: 381
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:48 pm

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Mr.T »

Hemperor wrote:I have watched that video many times for a long time now, and long ago I noticed all the comments from people saying "Double hally hit! Haven't seen that in so long!" etc. The fact that there is such small documentation on such an awesome move leads me to believe that it was very hard to perform, which is just a worry with me because of Razor already allowing noobs to perform otherwise next to impossible pvp moves.

Very interesting though, I'll certainly be looking into this as much as possible...Kind of sad that are shard isn't so diverse though, mostly North Americans here and not a single Japanese guy to tell us what it means!


Damn if only we had more Canadians... Half our population is asian now.
Image

User avatar
Faust
Posts: 6247
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Faust »

I think that I may have figured this one out finally that revolves around the same theory that Kaivan came up with several months ago with a slight modification to bypass the equip delay...

I will try to show an example using a hally with a standard delay of 5 seconds for the ease of the demostration...

We will say that a hally has swung and your character has received a delay of 5 seconds. If you wait to equip a weapon in between the prep delay of 0.25 seconds being around 4.75 and 5.0 seconds the prep delay timer triggers... We can say that you equipped the hally at 4.9 seconds in this example. The current combat delay at that moment is calculated into that prep time seeing that your delay ends in 0.1 seconds. You would swing at 5 seconds like normally, but that prep delay is still finishing out... When that delay finishes out it would swing again since the equip delay would not occur since the previous delay that was recorded would appear that it has elapsed resulting in another swing...

Kaivan
UOSA Donor!!
UOSA Donor!!
Posts: 2923
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:07 pm

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Kaivan »

This is what I take home from the explanation given in the first translation:

2Hit-Attack
When the weapon is equipped when 2Hit-Attack Delay has accumulated, that Delay of the weapon which is equipped starts accumulating. When the Delay accumulates, the amount which is accumulated to beginning is lost, but is, before if accumulating, it adjoins with the partner, Delay of the amount which is accumulated to beginning to be digested, after the weapon equipping, it becomes a state where Delay which it accumulates remains. If remaining Delay is accumulated, it can attack with 2 continuations. (After accumulating Delay, HAL equipment >1 when >HAL where it removes and re-installs it designates Delay as 4.0, it accumulates to about 3.8 > to adjoin with the partner, >0.2 where it shakes HAL second halting Delay it accumulates > it shakes HAL for the second time,) with the flow which is said. Simply, when it is the HAL likely slow weapon, it is not for encounter. (As for using about when commencing) the upper-class technique which shows the effect with the weapon about of Delay2.0~2.5.


When you first begin a swing delay with a weapon, it begins running up the timer to completion. If at any time during that process you arm a weapon, it begins running up the timer for that new weapon (starts accumulating), but the delay for the previous weapon is lost. However, before discarding the delay from the previous weapon, the delay for the new weapon is set to an equivalent value for the old weapon (the amount which is accumulated to beginning is lost, but is, before if accumulating, it adjoins with the partner, Delay of the amount which is accumulated to beginning to be digested, after the weapon equipping, it becomes a state where Delay which it accumulates remains). Thus, for a moment, the code enters a state where both the old weapon and the new weapon have an active delay. From the rest of the description, which is vague to say the least, I'm guessing that the description suggest that the process starts with you having a halberd armed eliciting a 4.0 second delay (we know this to be closer to 5 seconds, but it still serves its purpose none the less). At some point with less than a second remaining on the delay (about 3,8 seconds later as per the description), you drag and drop the halberd from your paperdoll on to your paperdoll (a quick arm/disarm that takes less than a tick), "resetting" your delay to 4 seconds (where it removes and re-installs it designates Delay as 4.0). Before resetting the delay of the new weapon to zero, the script matches the accumulated delay of the newly equipped weapon to meet the value of the old weapon (I assume this is done to evaluate whether the delay waited out under the old weapon, while still currently active, is greater than the total delay for the new weapon). Beyond this point, I am guessing that due to the way that the server processed the ability to swing your weapon at the time, since all actions took place in between the second to last tick and the last tick that would signify a ready to swing status for your halberd, that upon reaching that final tick, the game would interpret two active timers that were both ready to swing instead of clearing the timers and starting a new timer from scratch.
UOSA Historian and former staff member: August 11, 2008 - June 19, 2016

Useful links for researching T2A Mechanics

Stratics - UO Latest Updates - Newsgroup 1 - Noctalis - UO98.org

User avatar
Faust
Posts: 6247
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:01 pm

Re: Double Hit Decipher:

Post by Faust »

It sounds like you're saying that the equip delay value is based on your last equip delay. If this was the case when you unequipped the weapon it sets your new swing delay to that of wrestling(this is the "zero delay" technique that is described in that same article). In order for this to work the way you describe you would have to attach a variable that records your last equip delay to the playermobile.

We know that the equip delay resets the swing delay according to the weapon being equipped. For example, equipping hally would be based on the 25 speed and stamina at that time of the equip. The equip delay functioning as described above would eventually elapse over time no matter what if it records the last value. We know that this isn't true in the demo or modern UO based on the way the equip delay works. If you kept arming/disarming with an active delay it would last forever until the shard restarted.

I honestly don't think there is an extra value attached to the mobile that records your last equip delay.

Post Reply