Mace Weapon Guide

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morgan1109
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Mace Weapon Guide

Post by morgan1109 »

Figuring out which weapon to equip for the various classes can sometimes be a difficult task. You are typically going for a fast weapon (Katana), or the hardest hitter (Halberd, etc). Chances are you are carrying both for cycling.

I went into the weapon damage guide to see what I can tell. Primarily I was looking for the fastest and hardest hitting weapons to have comparable weapons for katana/halberd combo for cylcing. Some mace weapons were left off simply because they were not advantageous in any respect, so there didn’t seem to be any reason to include them.

Weapon hit dice
Hammer Pick 3 – larger damage range increasing likelihood of multiple high roll hits. Good for PVP and armored foes
Black Staff (2-H) 5
Quarterstaff (2-H) 5
War Axe 6
War Hammer (2-H) 7 – nominal for PVP and armored foes as damage is very consistent

The hammer pick wins by a mile. It is the “luckiest” weapon out there for mace, as getting multiple high hits depends on luck.

Damage average and spike damage @ 75th percentile
War Hammer (2-H) 22 \25.1 – useful in PVP. Hardest hitter when you can’t stay in constant contact with foe or can’t contact him every 1.5 seconds (quarterstaff)
Black Staff (2-H) 20.5\ 23.7
Hammer Pick 19.5\ 23.5 – highest range variability of 4 points due to hit dice above, but war hammer hits considerably harder at both 50th and 75th percentiles.
Quarterstaff (2-H) 18\ 20.7
War Axe 18 \20.4

GM versus Vanq –
War Hammer (2-H) 21\ 26
Black Staff (2-H) 19 \24
Hammer Pick 19 \24
Quarterstaff (2-H) 17 \22
War Axe 17\ 22
Maces all have a 5 point variance. A speedy Vanq weapon makes the most difference, not the weapon itself when maximizing additional damage. You can apply the additional damage more frequently. This fact will tip the scales toward the fast weapons.

100 dex weapon speed
Hammer Pick 2.50 – 67% slower
War Hammer (2-H) 2.25 – 50% slower
Black Staff (2-H) 2.00 – 33% slower
War Axe 1.75 – 16% slower than Qstaff but gain reparability, pot drink with no disarm, and parrying.
Quarterstaff (2-H) 1.50 – preferred PVM magic weapon, and mage interrupter

DOT at 100 dex with full contact versus contact every 2.5 seconds (mage hit avoidance)
Hammer Pick - 234/234
War Hammer (2-H) 272/264
Black Staff (2-H) 287/246
War Axe 1.75 – 288/216
Quarterstaff (2-H) 345/216
The quarterstaff at 345 when in constant contact wins, but drops to 216 when unable to constantly engage. That represents a 40% drop in DOT. The war axe suffers a similar fate as all speed weapons do in this situation. The war hammer significantly outperforms the rest when contestant contact isn’t kept. It outperforms the quarterstaff in damage done by 20% when trying to pin down a slippery mage.

Essentially the quarterstaff is the katana of the macing weapons. It has a high hit rate, so is a great interrupter in PVP, with the war hammer playing the role of halberd, which I never would have guessed. The other thing to note is the war axe is close in the speed department and allows you to drink Pots without disarming. It has the same average damage and nearly the same spike damage. War axes can be repaired so you get more mileage out of its magical properties. If you never plan to die, a magic war axe is a suitable replacement as its longer life should significantly exceed that of the quarterstaff. If you have 100 points invested in parrying, then the war axe is the clear choice.

The hammer pick while the best in the hit dice department, is just too slow. You can’t use it as an interrupter. It’s only viable use is as a heavy hitter you can cycle in, and the war hammer is better suited to that purpose. Its one main advantage (successive high hits) has little value when the hits come so far apart a greater heal can hit in between.

The war hammer, much like the halberd is a situational PVP weapon, and again I didn’t see this coming. I expected the black staff or the hammer pick to earn that honor. The spike damage between the quarterstaff (20) and the war hammer (25) isn’t nearly as large as the katana (18) & halberd (34) spike damage, so do NOT use it like you would a halberd. The halberd represents a nearly 100% increase in damage which means it is really well suited for frequent cycling. The war hammer is only a 25% increase so frequent cycling doesn’t provide nearly the value of a halberd. If you carry one, you will do a lot less cycling than you typically do with swords weapons. It does serve a couple purposes as noted above, and while not perfect it does have a role. Its damage is more consistent than any weapon out there (hit dice above), but it’s the best hard hitter we have access too.

Along with no poisoning the major weakness of Macing as pointed out above is our hard hitter isn’t close to the other hard hitters out there decreasing the value of cycling considerably. You will have to rely primarily on the speed weapons. The situational use you would typically employ a hard hitter (field PVP) might be better suited to the use of an offensively charged wand or gnarled staff of fireball/lightning. Your macing skill will be active and the steady damage from the wands would likely yield a better result. You also gain a ranged attack and the ability to interrupt on the run.

While the gnarled staff (10-30 dam per hit) isn’t included in the assessment above it does “enough” damage to let it sit in your hand for an offensive hit or two. The wands (2-6 dam per hit) really don’t do enough damage to use it to strike an opponent. This makes the gnarled staff a better option, unless you have parrying or need to drink/throw a pot. If you need to heal and are using a wand, you’ll likely want to run away. If you are using a gnarled staff to heal, you don’t need to run as it does enough damage to still engage the opponent while in hand.
The quarterstaff all things considered is probably the best overall weapon. Its main downfall is an inability to be repaired. That means once you start using it, its performance will steadily drop. It’s not a big deal if you have deep pockets, but you don’t want to take a used quarterstaff into a tournament. You’ll want it brand new one for each critical use.

To sum up:
If you carry a shield – War Axe

If you are a pot whore – War Axe and quarterstaff (when not drinking/throwing)

When in confined quarters – quarterstaff or war axe depending on two previous criteria above.

Carry vanq’s – war axe due to durability replenishment. Rich people or people who want only the best should go quarterstaff here.

Field PVP – Quarterstaff or war axe based on criteria above plus war hammer or charged offensive wand/gnarled staff.

When fighting a dexxer – quarterstaff or war axe – the DOT & additional stamina drain & armor destruction seem to outweigh the heavy hitter damage against high armor. You’ll want to extend the fight. With no real hard hitter and no ability to poison your weapon, your opponent likely has an advantage at the beginning of the fight. While most people “carry” poison weapons, most don’t have the ability to poison it themselves. The goal here is to extend the fight and stay alive. As time goes on his poison will run out. Your continual stamina sapping and armor damaging abilities will swing the fight in your favor before long. Just stay alive long enough and eventually you will win the battle.

I did the work above with the express purpose of figuring out what weapons work best in what situations. I decided to write my findings and opinions down in the hopes it might help someone else. Your opinions can certainly vary from mine. Good luck!
Thanks,

Eomin - Armsman
Varak - Treasure Hunter
Djimon - Smith/Tinker/Carpenter
Lorne - Scribe
Herm - Assassin

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I admire what you are trying to do ...

Post by SighelmofWyrmgard »

but there is a lot more to it ...

The "famous Stratics Tables" cite 50 Str, 50 Tactics, 0 Anatomy ...

Thing is, any increase to any/all of those stats is going to 'skew' the results that are provided on the corresponding table,
SighelmofWyrmgard wrote:
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FTFY.

SS
uosa44 wrote:The inability for this person to respond in such a crazy manner proves my point.

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Re: Mace Weapon Guide

Post by morgan1109 »

Actually they won't. I left all 3 of those off the analysis because their increases to damage is linear. If your anatomy is high enough to get a 20% bonus, all of those weapons will receive a 20% bonus. while a 20% bonus to say 10 (which would be 12) is much more than a 20% bonus to 2 (2.4). So I believe your point is 2 (12-10) points is more than the .4 (2.4-2) points, correct?

You are absolutely right, but the thing is 10 will always be more than 2. Always. So from a comparison perspective it becomes a moot point. The raw numbers tell us which one is better. The bonuses just widen the range a bit more. The weapons will never swap places in importance based off of strength, anatomy, and tactics. The winners in each category will just have a bit more of an edge than what is displayed here.
Thanks,

Eomin - Armsman
Varak - Treasure Hunter
Djimon - Smith/Tinker/Carpenter
Lorne - Scribe
Herm - Assassin

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Re: Mace Weapon Guide

Post by SighelmofWyrmgard »

Well, poo, I didn't really want to wade into the swamp, don't you know ...

The results will be skewed, because the effects of STR/DEX/TAC/ANAT variations, particularly vis a vis AR-damage-reduction, are not plotted (indeed, the only reference to AR --from those tables-- is a "flat" comparison of batch results against --specifically and only-- ARs 0 and 30, under the otherwise fixed conditions); nor is weapon quality considered.

Since different weapons have different damage-dice, their plotted raw damage (DPS) curves will, necessarily, possess unique geometries: each percentage increase to per-hit damage will not change this geometry, merely raise it on the graph; so, in terms of "raw damage", only, and assuming both fixed-attack-speed and only basic weapon quality, you are correct; unfortunately, raises to dex sufficient to increase attack speed will change that geometry, so will weapon quality, since different weapons have different base attack speeds.

(Actually, percentage-style increases will change the geometry, but I don't want to over-complicate the issue.)

Now, in addition to these skewing effects due to variant user/weapon stats, the projections do not adequately predict the influence of armor.

For one thing, there are going to be threshold "breakpoints", above which a specific weapon+user profile can be expected to "crack the AR" (a significant proportion of hits are expected to achieve significant, penetrating, damage), and below which it won't (an "insignificant" proportion of hits can be expected to achieve significant damage): the difference between these two cases could be as small as 1 AR and/or 1 weapon-damage point, while the magnitude of the effect will be determined by the geometry of the DPS-curve particular to that specific weapon+user profile.

For another thing, a superficial assessment of the above arguments fails to include necessary variations in AR-damage-reduction: AR-damage-reduction is not fixed; not only is it variable, but this variability is itself variable, dependent upon the base AR (that is to say, the total possible range of damage reduction to be expected from AR4 is vastly different from that to be expected from AR40); this will change the "DPS geometry", as well.

The practice of "weapon-cycling" artificially manipulates the swing-timer, so Hally-Mages will generate yet another, different, statistical profile.

Damage to the weapon, and damage to the Armor, will also alter their respective effectiveness at any point of measurement: previously well-used and/or beat-up equipment will degrade at a faster rate than anything that is brand-new, and different types of equipment have different (and, so far as I know, variable) values for base durability hitpoints; I haven't even mentioned the influence of shield+parrying skill ... even having Reactive Armor and/or Protection buffs in-place can potentially insert a significant influence.

(Sure, everybody possesses enough sense to repair/replace equipment, so I concede that it seems like a silly interjection, but I think it's rather harmless to remind folks to make sure to keep equipment in-good-fettle, and to assess this in terms of the specific item's base durability.)

So, at this juncture, I reassert that any "weapon" profile comparison is inadequate; any "weapon+user" profile comparison is inadequate; it needs to be "weapon+user v. (a specific value of) AR, with/without (a specific value of) ShieldAR+Parrychance, with/without buffs" profile comparison.

Regarding "general combat preparedness", any player must also acknowledge the implications of hit-location.

TL;DR

1. High-speed weapons benefit a lot more than many people imagine from quality (normal -> exceptional ... -> vanquishing) bonuses, as well as +Tactics Accuracy bonuses, and Anatomy-skill damage bonuses, and

2. In any "High AR environment", variables in the specific, per-hit, AR-damage-reduction calculations will account for more "damage-spikes" than people might anticipate (compared to, say, the influences of weapons that possess a steeply-curved "base DPS geometry").

However, regarding both propositions, it's not "YMMV"; it's, your mileage will vary.

Morgan1109, I applaud your intentions in compiling this data, and I thank you for doing the work. I merely wanted to interject that anyone/everyone should appreciate that "there's a lot more to it".

SS

EDIT: the information to which I refer as "Stratics Tables" can be found here: http://web.archive.org/web/199910121810 ... atics.com/ (find Weapons, NOT Weapons Study, in the sidebar; from that page, in the header, select Arms Study, and Arms Study Essay).

SS
SighelmofWyrmgard wrote:
uosa44 wrote:For sale, by original owner:
1 Human Brain, never been used, only slightly damaged, still in original packaging.
$1, obo
FTFY.

SS
uosa44 wrote:The inability for this person to respond in such a crazy manner proves my point.

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Re: Mace Weapon Guide

Post by morgan1109 »

That was an awesome response. You are absolutely right. There are many variables unaccounted for. I simply submit that trying to account for every variable is an impossible task. We have to simplify it to some extent to draw some general conclusions. Since most of those variables are linear they won’t cause a weapon to move above another weapons line. I kept my data points at the 50 and 75 percentiles, but you are absolutely right at other points they may in fact cross over due to variations in the dice. Since in every case the same weapons were higher at the 50th and 75th percentiles, I would say weapons crossing lines due to dice variations is a rare and short lived occurrence. Those variables do matter a great deal though when facing armored foes as you clearly pointed out.

Friggin AR. AR messes everything up. As you pointed out AR should absolutely be included. It just sucks trying to include it. I tried to avoid it completely. Mainly because AR continually drops when you engage with a mace weapon. It greatly complicates the math because you have to engineer the number of actual hits, and the %drop to AR caused by each successive hit. You have to determine a fair time for a bout, etc. It’s virtually impossible to account for all the variations armor causes within a fight, let alone across many fights/foes. Variations in AR based on hit location. Bleh.

I honestly gave up on it, because I couldn’t find a fair way to assess it. However, I knew I had to do something with AR. In the end I simply tried a war hammer (heavy hitter to get through AR) and a quarterstaff (fast hitter) against a dexxer (30 AR) and did 10 bouts with each weapon (not enough to be statistically valid sample). The heavy hitter did better at the beginning. At about the 15 second mark the quarterstaff took over. The additional hits from the staff lowered the AR of the opponent quicker than the heavy hitter. It was clear that when facing high AR opponents it was usually best to destroy their armor quickly rather than worry about getting “through” their armor.

Now if facing a 40+ AR opponent that may in fact be a very different story. However, I didn’t want to destroy all my magic armor to get the data point, heh heh. I was simply trying to get at least one data point against armored foes so I picked the most common AR for PVP (that wasn’t zero). That’s why I recommended a quarterstaff against dexxers. It’s an oversimplified attempt at addressing AR. The rest of the guide deals primarily with math, while this piece relies on anecdotal evidence. It sucks, but so does trying to account for all the variations AR can cause in a bout. In the end the only conclusion I could draw is that faster weapons are generally better against armored foes if you can prolong the fight. It’s a weak assertion. In the interest of full disclosure I did the AR test with 100 strength, 100 anat, 100 tactics, and 80 Dex.

Dex variations were something I chose to not include as well. Most of my calculations were done with 100 dex. Clearly I don’t run my macer at 100 dex from the test above, heh heh. Essentially the results are slightly skewed toward the heavier weapons. If you run at 80 dex like I do, the faster weapons are slightly better than what is portrayed in the guide. It's a weak attempt as well, but you've got to draw the line somewhere when trying to simplify to the point of writing a guide.
Thanks,

Eomin - Armsman
Varak - Treasure Hunter
Djimon - Smith/Tinker/Carpenter
Lorne - Scribe
Herm - Assassin

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Re: Mace Weapon Guide

Post by The Gods »

hammer pick is underrated and overlooked imo...i use it more than anything cept war hammer and qstaff

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Re: Mace Weapon Guide

Post by Roser »

My typical load out is War hammer, Q-staff, and Hammer pick.

On occasion I will swap out for other weapons if they have nice stat's like DB Power or something.

I spent some time trying to figure out what the better one hander is, War axe or Hammer pick, I like the pick way more.
Last edited by Roser on Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mace Weapon Guide

Post by Boomland Jenkins »

Rose wrote:My typical load out is War hammer, Q-staff, and Hammer pick.

On occasion I will swap out for otehr weapons if they have nice stat's like DB Power or something.

I spent some time trying to figure out what the better one hander is, War axe or Hammer pick, I like the pick way more.
I use to use a quarter staff and hammer pick pretty often here.
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Re: Mace Weapon Guide

Post by morgan1109 »

I do use the hammer pick on occasion as well. It does have the highest variation of any mace weapon which is an area macers suffer from more than any other. I honestly wholly expected it to do better in comparison at the outset. Mainly when I have a nice magic one. The accuracy bonus's really seem to help with the low weapon speed I think.
Thanks,

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Varak - Treasure Hunter
Djimon - Smith/Tinker/Carpenter
Lorne - Scribe
Herm - Assassin

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