Third Party Programs ruined Ultima Online

[Arkah]

i had forgotten the words of pwoer for nightsight until you said that. Also i havent seen Nightsight kegs in a very very long time

[Van Raily]

But UOA cost money, and not everyone had it - particularly in '99. I know plenty of people who still don't have it.

[Psilo]

The game wasn't ruined. 3rd party programs were around for some time, Easy UO, UO Extreme, UO assist.

It's all about adapting, adapt and learn to use those programs.

What it comes down to is how good you are at the pvp. That takes knowing mechanics and knowing your hotkeys, that's how the game has always been. It helps to know how to "fast cast", hally cycle timer ect.. This goes for now, and it did in 1999 as well.

Razor has changed pvp a bit sure, but look it has also introduced cool aspects such as using fireball/lightning wands as quick side weapons. ect.

Of course UO assist had that too.

Anyway, I think we need to stop worrying about things like this since they are here to stay. Let's move forward if anything, not backwards. Gotta adapt.

[Van Raily]

I was also under the impression that many of these 3PPs were illegal (and for good reason). As far as I remember, UOA (the one that cost $10-$15 or so) was the only "legal" 3PP allowed on OSI. I may be wrong, I only got UOA after playing a freeshard and getting spoiled by Razor back in 2007, but if not, then "adapting" by using illegal programs isn't right at all. There's a fine line between "adapting" and "cheating", and that gets rather close to crossing that line.

[nightshark]

I was also under the impression that many of these 3PPs were illegal (and for good reason). As far as I remember, UOA (the one that cost $10-$15 or so) was the only "legal" 3PP allowed on OSI. I may be wrong, I only got UOA after playing a freeshard and getting spoiled by Razor back in 2007, but if not, then "adapting" by using illegal programs isn't right at all. There's a fine line between "adapting" and "cheating", and that gets rather close to crossing that line.

You're correct, UOA was the only legal 3rd party app, at least up until 2003 when I quit official servers. UOA had far less features than razor. It was mainly useful just for useonce agents, pots and bandys. By the time I quit, I know it was possible to script explosion potions, however that might have been with an illegal third party app. I never used exp pots on official servers so can't really comment.

The majority of PvPers on my shard were using UOA (as early as nov '99), so I don't agree with your comment that most people didn't use it.

[Psilo]

Razor has done good things too, such as make setting hotkeys easier(UO hotkeys gump is tiresome), and it allows for macroed teleport rings, wands, staves ect.

You just gotta set the hotkeys and learn to use, then it becomes second nature so you can focus more on the "combat".

[Van Raily]

That's a majority of PvPers, which reiterates my point: most people didn't have it. There's more to UO than PvP, and the casual farmer isn't spending $15 so they can have 1337 macros. The macro system provided by UO up until KR or even SA was primitive at best, and even making a heal-self macro was complicated and up to chance whether or not the client remembered what your Last Object was (BandageSelf, when it came out, was bugged for weeks, and even that was after 2006 or 2007).

Ultimately, it comes down to, "Can you play the game?" "Yes." "Can you play it as well as this person?" "No." "Then get a 3PP." "Okay." And I'm sorry, but that's not era-accurate. Is Razor fun? Sure, it's great, but not era-accurate.

I've been playing since Summer '98, and I still haven't crawled all of the original dungeons. I've been PvPing. Didn't know the math behind the game, the code, anything like that; heck, I hadn't even heard of UOAssist until 2006 or so. I would very much think that most UO players didn't have 3PPs up their sleeve, and thinking that most PvPers "back then" did and myself and my friends and others didn't, well, it seems I had more PvP skeelz than I thought to be able to keep up with that nonsense (although I still hold that most PvPers didn't have it then, but if they did, fiiii-ire).

[nightshark]

Like it or lump it, UOA was a part of UO in those days. Even UOE was, though it was illegal. To decry razor for the fact it makes things like potting and bandaiding easier is just wrong. Whether you were part of the group of players who used UOA or not is irrelevant. Whether the majority of players used it or not is also irrelevant - the option was there. It's like saying "most people didnt carry around pots and pouches in '99, so this shard is not era accurate".

Anyway, I agree with you to some point that razor does harm the shard to a point of seeming "era inaccurate" - but not in a way related to quick potting, equipping, using pouches etc. Unfortunately it's been stated nothing can be done about it, other than forcing people to use razor to log in so they can disable certain features. If that were the case, things would probably get even worse with certain people using other third party apps to do the things they used to be able to do with razor.

This shard aims for era accuracy mechanics - it's impossible to stop people abusing those mechanics to their full potential. UO is going to be a different game to '99 no matter what restrictions are put in place.

[Sandro]

Like it or lump it, UOA was a part of UO in those days. Even UOE was, though it was illegal. To decry razor for the fact it makes things like potting and bandaiding easier is just wrong. Whether you were part of the group of players who used UOA or not is irrelevant. Whether the majority of players used it or not is also irrelevant - the option was there. It's like saying "most people didnt carry around pots and pouches in '99, so this shard is not era accurate".

Anyway, I agree with you to some point that razor does harm the shard to a point of seeming "era inaccurate" - but not in a way related to quick potting, equipping, using pouches etc. Unfortunately it's been stated nothing can be done about it, other than forcing people to use razor to log in so they can disable certain features. If that were the case, things would probably get even worse with certain people using other third party apps to do the things they used to be able to do with razor.


This shard aims for era accuracy mechanics - it's impossible to stop people abusing those mechanics to their full potential. UO is going to be a different game to '99 no matter what restrictions are put in place.

nice post

[Van Raily]

the option was there.

So to play the game you had to use hacks and/or illegal programs?

There's a fine line being crossed in that argument, from using a legal, pay-to-use program like UOA (not everyone was hard enough to spend an extra $15 on a program, particularly since most of us were 12-13 years old and already bugging mom and dad for the game and internet costs) to using illegal (that is, bannable) 3PPs or even hacks (tree stumps).

So my point remains valid: "adaptation" is expected (which I agree) to the point you are forced to cheat (where I disagree). If the game creators wanted us to use programs that take out about 50% of the player skill, they would have put these programs in or made them legal then. They did not.

Your argument rests on the fact that regardless of legality, you have the option to do it. Someone harassing you? Kill them. Sure, ignoring them, getting courts involved, restraining orders - all those are available, provided by the law (read: developers). But, hell, why not just shoot the bastard in the eye? Make it a whole lot easier, right? That is, in effect, your argument: players should break TOSes to stay current or competitive. Like speedhacking or whatever else is out there.

That was not, is not, and never will be UO. That is simply a crutch to make things easier or to give an unintended advantage over those who fly straight.

Back to the original post, yes, 3PPs did do a lot to ruin the game, and while I know nothing can be done about it, it certainly needs to be considered at all times by the developers and administrators of any shard, particularly era-accurate ones such as SecondAge, for lines are being drawn in the sand and shifted regularly. If such discrepancies are allowed in one area (CTF/tournies for PvP, the fact Razor exists, sticky healthbars), they should certainly be considered for others (gardening for aesthetic purposes, special dye tubs) that may increase the playerbase while era-accuracy is lost already. But that's another topic!

[nightshark]

So to play the game you had to use hacks and/or illegal programs?

There's a fine line being crossed in that argument, from using a legal, pay-to-use program like UOA (not everyone was hard enough to spend an extra $15 on a program, particularly since most of us were 12-13 years old and already bugging mom and dad for the game and internet costs) to using illegal (that is, bannable) 3PPs or even hacks (tree stumps).

So my point remains valid: "adaptation" is expected (which I agree) to the point you are forced to cheat (where I disagree). If the game creators wanted us to use programs that take out about 50% of the player skill, they would have put these programs in or made them legal then. They did not.

Your argument rests on the fact that regardless of legality, you have the option to do it. Someone harassing you? Kill them. Sure, ignoring them, getting courts involved, restraining orders - all those are available, provided by the law (read: developers). But, hell, why not just shoot the bastard in the eye? Make it a whole lot easier, right? That is, in effect, your argument: players should break TOSes to stay current or competitive. Like speedhacking or whatever else is out there.

That was not, is not, and never will be UO. That is simply a crutch to make things easier or to give an unintended advantage over those who fly straight

I'll summarise my points.
-UOA was not illegal
-Razor mimics UOA, but has more features, some which "lead to an era inaccurate feel".
-The only way we can limit razor's functionality is to force players to log in via razor, which most probably will not happen (that would also discourage growth from some facets)
-In the event razor was nerfed, people will use other 3rd party apps to do what they used to be able to do with razor, worsening the situation. It's lose-lose.

There's nothing left worth discussing on the issue IMO

[Biohazard]

isnt there some other third party program that someone on this shard was making to log into the shard? i seem to recall some thread about that.... i thought it was derrick or someone around derrick that was working on this.

[SJane3384]

You killed Ultima Online, original poster. You did.

[Corbin]

Where to start...

There are a lot of things that killed UO, or prevented it from being the game it could/should have been.

The biggest killer of all was EA. The disagreements that Garriott had with them, the killing off of Origin, the endless amounts of stupid and seemingly unfathomable decisions they made compounded with a lack of actual care for the game itself and doing very little to prevent it's downfall. That is what truly killed UO for many many people. Trammel being the most obvious mistake they made could have been handled so differently that would have worked for all players. Instead, they took a cheap way out which practically destroyed the player base. From then on it was bad decision after bad decision as they attempted to halfheartedly fix the problems they caused which essentially caused even more problems.

A close second was all the cheating and 3PP which is still an issue on production shards to this day. Duping is still out of control and I don't know one person who wasn't unattended macroing when I left the game 2 years ago (I actually started a 15 day trial prior to coming to UOSA and nothing is changed). When it comes to PVPing, the cheating was way out of hand. It's not so much that they have macros for chugging pots, it's that these scripts they were using were automatically making them chug or auto healing so that the player didn't even need to pay attention to their health or status; the script did it all for them. As for anything other than PVP... well, there was absolutely no challenge left in UO when I quit because everyone had accomplished the impossible: they beat UO. Everyone had 7xGMs, legendary fighters, etc. There was nothing left to do other than join guilds to control the market for things like powerscrolls by ghost camming every champ spawn or buy the houses in Luna to sell their duped and illegal goods.

We actually held a large protest one night on Catskills not long before I stopped playing. There was a guy running around the shard blatantly showing off his illegally duped cloak. People were practically rioting because of this. GMs showed up because of the mass paging and complaining and they did the expected: nothing. Dude was standing there is what was obviously a duped item as there was no other way to get it and they did absolutely nothing to him. Now practically everyone on the shard has these items because of the duping.

UOA was pretty much the only legal program because it had simple macros, most of which could be performed in UO itself, but was basically creating an "enhanced client". The only reason it was made legal was because it didn't permit making macros that could be used unattended.

I've always been an anti-cheat advocate. I never saw the point and felt it really ruined the game for everyone else as well as yourself. The market on the production shards is thrashed from all the unattended gathering/mining, duping, and so fourth to the point that there is no way to fix it. Being a crafter/merchant in my later years of UO, it bode very badly for me to the point that I just couldn't keep up.

I like the way this shard is setup in that unattended macroing is OK for skilling, but not gathering. I just hope this is enforced.