Insta Hit, Weapon Mechanics, and much more...

[Kraarug]

Your gay.

I'm guessing Cortez is the Dexxer who don't.

You are wrong on both statements. I am certainly not gay and I have to spam last attack here to be effective.

Seriously, I thought the homoerotic talk went away out of style in 1999 but I guess that part of era accuracy is still alive in well.

Like I said, provide proof of the collective memory of the 2 second hally whack stuff with other documented evidence. Look it up yourself instead of rubber stamping things that have already been proven to be in doubt. Find your own sources and add to the coversation but keep personal attacks of it. It makes you look weak and proves you have nothing else to say.

I think it's pretty powerful that the source of the 2 second hally whack makes no mention of it in any of his subsequent posts or guides. There is no other site that I have been able to search [UO Vault, Battle Vortex, UOC, UO Journal, WTFman, JOV, Azile Witch Project (You remember Azile and Alice Cooper don't you Derrick)] that mentions a fast hally whack after the OSI patch that fixed it. Trust me, if it was working after February '99 someone on any of these sites would have posted about it... Even on JOV, the source of the Screen Shot and Journal entry their PvP guide, written AFTER the Nighthawk story, states that the Hally Whack is too slow for MvD combat. (How do you explain that away?)

Maybe you guys have played too many player run shards because after February '99, that stuff was fixed on OSI. Prove it otherwise.

[RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR]

Your gay.

I'm guessing Cortez is the Dexxer who don't.

You are wrong on both statements. I am certainly not gay and I have to spam last attack here to be effective.

Seriously, I thought the homoerotic talk went away out of style in 1999 but I guess that part of era accuracy is still alive in well.

Like I said, provide proof of the collective memory of the 2 second hally whack stuff with other documented evidence. Look it up yourself instead of rubber stamping things that have already been proven to be in doubt. Find your own sources and add to the coversation but keep personal attacks of it. It makes you look weak and proves you have nothing else to say.

You just ignored my whole post and went straight to " You're gay".

Lol Srsly?

I was reprimanding you for being so presumptuous of your "doubt", I mean it is only doubt it certainly isn't documented evidence to prove that 2 second hally whacks are inaccurate, I believe I have made that clear in my post.

Why dont you find some

documented evidence

so that you can actually prove that 2 second hally whacks are incorrect.

Remember me and Faust are defending an implementation that has a good amount of evidence, you are just calling that evidence into question, and I believe I have already proven in my previous post that your questioning is far from conclusive.

It's up to you, bring me evidence that The Delay Timers are incorrect because right now it's feeling pretty correct to me, so far all you've done is presumptuously and rather ineffectively slandered evidence that is actually rather convincing.

[Faust]

Cortez, you are only tooting your own Horn with a bunch of pointless information. I have stated it already until you find reasonable evidence that suggests the implementation of the unequip delay at a different point in time than the stratics article your credibility on this topic is flat out zero. The only people that follow suit are people like Loops and Senses who has been bitching about the mechanic in the first place. Lord Hades was by far an awful PVPer on Baja. Lotd was the worst of the PK alliance between LoD and the Warlocks. There were plenty of people that did not know about casting spells to "refresh" a previous swing. You are obviously one of these people that never quite understood the game mechanics at all.

The difference here Senses is that I have actually found evidence that TELLS you how something worked. All Cortez is providing are articles written by people that clearly didn't know about the game play tactic. How can there be articles written by people that did utitlize this feature and those that didn't at the same time? Hrm, maybe it's because there were those that knew about it and those that didn't!? Good job finding an article about someone that didn't... It means absolutely nothing until you provide some physical evidence on the topic.

[Kraarug]

Your gay.

I'm guessing Cortez is the Dexxer who don't.

You are wrong on both statements. I am certainly not gay and I have to spam last attack here to be effective.

Seriously, I thought the homoerotic talk went away out of style in 1999 but I guess that part of era accuracy is still alive in well.

Like I said, provide proof of the collective memory of the 2 second hally whack stuff with other documented evidence. Look it up yourself instead of rubber stamping things that have already been proven to be in doubt. Find your own sources and add to the coversation but keep personal attacks of it. It makes you look weak and proves you have nothing else to say.

I think it's pretty powerful that the source of the 2 second hally whack makes no mention of it in any of his subsequent posts or guides. There is no other site that I have been able to search [UO Vault, Battle Vortex, UOC, UO Journal, WTFman, JOV, Azile Witch Project (You remember Azile and Alice Cooper don't you Derrick)] that mentions a fast hally whack after the OSI patch that fixed it. Trust me, if it was working after February '99 someone on any of these sites would have posted about it... Even on JOV, the source of Foust's Screen Shot and Journal entry shows, in their PvP guide written AFTER the Nighthawk story, that the Hally Whack is too slow for Mage vDexxer combat. (How do you explain that away? Hell, that was over 6 months since the fix of the real bug and the Faust's birth of the theoretical bug)

Maybe you guys have played too many player run shards because after February '99, that stuff was fixed on OSI. Prove it otherwise.

I mean, come on, we'd have to believe that OSI claimed to fix the EXACT but with another bugged fix. I know that SunSword was pretty goofy but even if they let that fool program the fix he couldn't mess it up that bad.

[Faust]

Like I said, provide proof of the collective memory of the 2 second hally whack stuff with other documented evidence. Look it up yourself instead of rubber stamping things that have already been proven to be in doubt. Find your own sources and add to the coversation but keep personal attacks of it. It makes you look weak and proves you have nothing else to say.

"Until you prove that the 2 second delay isn't correct by pin pointing the implementation of the disarm delay at some other point in time you will not have any credibility on this topic."

Thanks, enough said.

[RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR]

Your gay.

I'm guessing Cortez is the Dexxer who don't.

You are wrong on both statements. I am certainly not gay and I have to spam last attack here to be effective.

Seriously, I thought the homoerotic talk went away out of style in 1999 but I guess that part of era accuracy is still alive in well.

Like I said, provide proof of the collective memory of the 2 second hally whack stuff with other documented evidence. Look it up yourself instead of rubber stamping things that have already been proven to be in doubt. Find your own sources and add to the coversation but keep personal attacks of it. It makes you look weak and proves you have nothing else to say.

I think it's pretty powerful that the source of the 2 second hally whack makes no mention of it in any of his subsequent posts or guides. There is no other site that I have been able to search [UO Vault, Battle Vortex, UOC, UO Journal, WTFman, JOV, Azile Witch Project (You remember Azile and Alice Cooper don't you Derrick)] that mentions a fast hally whack after the OSI patch that fixed it. Trust me, if it was working after February '99 someone on any of these sites would have posted about it... Even on JOV, the source of Foust's Screen Shot and Journal entry shows, in their PvP guide written AFTER the Nighthawk story, that the Hally Whack is too slow for Mage vDexxer combat. (How do you explain that away? Hell, that was over 6 months since the fix of the real bug and the Faust's birth of the theoretical bug)

Maybe you guys have played too many player run shards because after February '99, that stuff was fixed on OSI. Prove it otherwise.

I mean, come on, we'd have to believe that OSI claimed to fix the EXACT but with another bugged fix. I know that SunSword was pretty goofy but even if they let that fool program the fix he couldn't mess it up that bad.

YOU'RE JUST BRINGING IN DOUBT WHICH IF FOLLOWED WILL ONLY REMOVE A T2A ACCURATE FEATURE (HIT REFRESH)

START READING POSTS OR LEAVE THE THREAD PLS

Even on JOV, the source of Foust's Screen Shot and Journal entry shows, in their PvP guide written AFTER the Nighthawk story, that the Hally Whack is too slow for Mage vDexxer combat. (How do you explain that away?

ANSWER

Halberd against a warrior can still be ineffective if the warrior is smart enough to stick to you and spam attack last, why don't you understand this??!?!?

mean, come on, we'd have to believe that OSI claimed to fix the EXACT but with another bugged fix. I know that SunSword was pretty goofy but even if they let that fool program the fix he couldn't mess it up that bad.

ANSWER

OSI is known for fixing one problem and creating another, adding insta-hit in the first place was a "stupid fix" in there eyes, as they reverted back to the old way of giving you a whole new delay for equipping a new weapon anyways, besides they figured no one was going to exploit it, and people didn't really figure it out because they still thought that refreshing your hit had to do with casting a spell, which explains why it is seldom talked about.

How is it feeling correct to you? When I look up a character with the name RAAAAAAAAAAAR, I see a newbie. Have yet to see a character with that name in any event or fighting on the field. If you go by another name, I'd be interested to see who. Currently all I see from you RAAAAAAAAAR, are Faust quotes and Faust like lingo to try to get back at someone for being logical in a direction that doesn't follow Faust.

What if I've never even played Ultima Online, it wouldn't matter my thoughts are still logical.

[Kraarug]

You just ignored my whole post and went straight to " You're gay".

Lol Srsly?

I was reprimanding you for being so presumptuous of your "doubt", I mean it is only doubt it certainly isn't documented evidence to prove that 2 second hally whacks are inaccurate, I believe I have made that clear in my post.

Why dont you find some

documented evidence

so that you can actually prove that 2 second hally whacks are incorrect.

Remember me and Faust are defending an implementation that has a good amount of evidence, you are just calling that evidence into question, and I believe I have already proven in my previous post that your questioning is far from conclusive.

It's up to you, bring me evidence that The Delay Timers are incorrect because right now it's feeling pretty correct to me, so far all you've done is presumptuously and rather ineffectively slandered evidence that is actually rather convincing.

Yeah, I do not take personal attacks lightly.

And, my point is that the whole source rests on one line in a mistake ridden site. I can not provide proof subsequent proof that a 2 second 'average' delay everexisted, and neither can you.

THAT'S HOW I STARTED!!!! I wanted to find proof it existed and I couldn't!!!

I went back to the same source of the corrupted data and can not find another else to back up that one sentence.

I went to other sources and ernestly looked to see if there was a 2 second timer or ANY proof of a 'slow weapon hitting fast' bug AFTER OSI fixed it... and you know what? I havne't been able to find it.

So..there are tons of information on that page that is incorrect. Have you even looked at it yourself? What should we implement next? Armslore in the wrestling formula? Should we have to disarm to heal? When are we going to start to have Parry modify the spell damage?

What? None of that stuff existed in T2A? How can that be, because it was on that page.. it HAS to be correct right?

Prove it those things didn't exist in the documented evidence.

We have a patch that says the bug with fast hally refreshes were fixed. You can not get past that unless you come with something else.

[Faust]

And, my point is that the whole source rests on one line in a mistake ridden site. I can not provide proof subsequent proof that a 2 second 'average' delay everexisted, and neither can you.

Here is where you continue to fail in this discussion. A disarm/unequip delay WAS added to the game and CONFIRMED to exist. SHOW ME WHERE THIS DELAY WAS ADDED BESIDES THE COMMENT LISTED IN STRATICS. Until you do this you will have absolutely no credibility on this topic at all. The ONLY documentation on this delay is the article in stratics. It does not matter how much theories and pointless crap that you throw out there. Until you can prove WHEN THIS DELAY was added besides this point in time it WON'T matter one bit.

The only debunk person in this thread is you and your awful research. I will be looking forward to your next pointless comment as always.

End of story.

[RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR]

Let me explain.

People remember swinging there weapon then casting an energy bolt and then being able to swing again ok.

Without the 2 second delay refresh you cannot do that.

Faust found some spurious evidence to show a possible way to implement this.

It was deemed acceptable and applied to UOSA.


So what is the proof?

Well what we have is some memories that you can refresh your hit by standing still for 2 seconds, then we have some rather spurious code, also we have a very spurious sentence from a stratics page stating you can do so, and then we have some vague patch notes not really stating anything about refreshing hits but still coincidental.

You have no memories, but you are bringing out how spurious the patch notes are, you are stating that it is merely coincidence, and you are supplying no theory on how one could refresh his hit.

So we have a spuriously evidenced theory on spell refresh, and then we have the doubt and the thought that it is all just a coincidence.

Well we should go with 2 second delay because well, it creates a era accurate feature.


This thread has had everything said that needs to be said in it, I'm done posting in it.

[Kraarug]

Here is the page that Faust clings to....

http://uo.stratics.com/warfare/hallnews ... ocookies=1

Click it, it won't bite you.

And here is the section that he is buidling his whole case on. Please, spot the other problems in this list of 'future fixes'.

Feb 1st, 1999

My Thoughts on the Revisions:

* Parrying has become more effective versus archery. However, at least to me, it seems that it is now less effective versus melee weapons. Parrying is not completely finished because they still have to add the ability to deflect direct targeting magical spells.



* Channeling: Is going to be pretty much useless in PvP most of the time. Without armor, the mage is crowbait if a warrior gets up on him. For channeling to work the mage must be standing still, not attacking, not taking damage, and not using any other skill. This makes them a prime target for area effect spells or explosion potions. To be honest, I would just keep the mage in plate mail and use the normal regeneration rates and say to hell with channeling.



* Swing Rates: Now we have swing rates striking at the beginning of each attack. This dam near offsets the entire reason for the weapons revision. If they were going to do this, then they shouldn't have bothered to even revise the weapons. The weapons revision purpose was to use damage + weapon speed and bring the weapons up to snuff between the skill classes. Now its just damage vs damage, with speed being taken totally out. I think that a kryss or katana wielder should be able to stick and move out of the way of a clumsy halberd. Speed and damage balanced all weapons out, but I don't like this new change. *



* Evaluate Int: Renders the magic resist skill nearly useless. You can GM this skill in 2-3 days, but it takes weeks or months to GM the resist skill. Until they fix the learning curve for Eval Int, it upsets the balance.



* Healing: Although they have not done this yet, they are talking about making healing require the use of both hands. I think this is a little too much, but I would be willing to deal with it if they made us have 1 free hand in order to heal.



* Disarming Weapons: gives a 2 second delay. Ok, wonderful but this goes hand in hand with the hit being calculated at the beginning of each swing to cause further inbalances.

How many mistakes did you spot? I see 6, included the last one.

And Faust, I need not prove something didn't exist when I agree with you that disarm delays DO EXIST. It was the only way to implement Insta-Hit Damage First.

I only disagree with a flat disarm timer.

Look at the quote above, can you see why I have doubt about your source?

[Derrick]

This thread has a lot of merit and while some of the violent division detracts from the subject at hand I think it's a wonderful thing that so many care enough to try and find out what exactly the proper mechanic here is.

There's a whole separate side project going on currently to fully decompile the entire t2a demo, which although not accurate to the era really will give us a good starting point to understand how the timers really did work, and may reveal something hopefully. The progress has been incredible.

In the meantime we have a system which while certainly not fully proven accurate, it's very close, and over all these few lines of code in question are one of the few barriers left to having a fully accurate shard. For as big of an issue this may be in game play, it honestly represents less that a tenth of a percent of the coding that's gone into UOSA.

I really look forward to a conclusion on this, and i'm really hoping that the fire that's been lit under the issues will close some of them. This is really a response to three of four parallel threads that are currently active and between those threads some really good issues have been raised. I'm especially interested in the question of melee damage disrupting, and another issue of reequipping when you have a swing ready (especially while moving) as it relates to this current topic. Additionally the "fast-cast" issue and the bandage slip rate should be addressed soon.

For me a lot of these threads move fast, and contain loads of information in a very much less than digestible way. I don't know if there may be a better way to present this info (at least keeping it in a single thread would help). Everyone has worked very hard and passionately compiling these sources memories and questions. This effort will not be in vain, and is honestly the only way we're ever going to be able to get this thing right.

I really appreciate everyone's dedication to these topics. Please don't take my 8 pages of silence as dis-interest in this issue, I've been keeping up as best I can with the topic but really am not able to do much of this research and do not intend to inject my own opinion in here. I have no era knowledge of "swing refreshes" at all, which is neither evidence for or against anything.

[Faust]

Here is the page that Faust clings to....

http://uo.stratics.com/warfare/hallnews ... ocookies=1

Click it, it won't bite you.

And here is the section that he is buidling his whole case on. Please, spot the other problems in this list of 'future fixes'.

Feb 1st, 1999

My Thoughts on the Revisions:

* Parrying has become more effective versus archery. However, at least to me, it seems that it is now less effective versus melee weapons. Parrying is not completely finished because they still have to add the ability to deflect direct targeting magical spells.



* Channeling: Is going to be pretty much useless in PvP most of the time. Without armor, the mage is crowbait if a warrior gets up on him. For channeling to work the mage must be standing still, not attacking, not taking damage, and not using any other skill. This makes them a prime target for area effect spells or explosion potions. To be honest, I would just keep the mage in plate mail and use the normal regeneration rates and say to hell with channeling.



* Swing Rates: Now we have swing rates striking at the beginning of each attack. This dam near offsets the entire reason for the weapons revision. If they were going to do this, then they shouldn't have bothered to even revise the weapons. The weapons revision purpose was to use damage + weapon speed and bring the weapons up to snuff between the skill classes. Now its just damage vs damage, with speed being taken totally out. I think that a kryss or katana wielder should be able to stick and move out of the way of a clumsy halberd. Speed and damage balanced all weapons out, but I don't like this new change. *



* Evaluate Int: Renders the magic resist skill nearly useless. You can GM this skill in 2-3 days, but it takes weeks or months to GM the resist skill. Until they fix the learning curve for Eval Int, it upsets the balance.



* Healing: Although they have not done this yet, they are talking about making healing require the use of both hands. I think this is a little too much, but I would be willing to deal with it if they made us have 1 free hand in order to heal.



* Disarming Weapons: gives a 2 second delay. Ok, wonderful but this goes hand in hand with the hit being calculated at the beginning of each swing to cause further inbalances.

How many mistakes did you spot? I see 6, included the last one.

And Faust, I need not prove something didn't exist when I agree with you that disarm delays DO EXIST. It was the only way to implement Insta-Hit Damage First.

I only disagree with a flat disarm timer.

Look at the quote above, can you see why I have doubt about your source?

You really should learn to count...

Correct:
- Parry was fixed to block arrows when it previously did not.
- Channeling(Meditation) was added.
- Swing rates were changed... Insta hit was added the last time I checked...
- Eval Int was added to base magery damage from...
- Disarm delay was CONFIRMED to be added.

Incorrect:
- Parry never did receive the ability to deflect missile spells, although was talked about significantly even after the 1st of February in UOHOC logs.
- Healing never did receive the requirement to have two hands free for obvious reasons.

Was math not a highlight in your life?

If you ask me the odds are in favor of the delay compared to your theory. I would rather trust a 72% probability than a 28% where you're standing.

[Kraarug]

Here is the page that Faust clings to....

http://uo.stratics.com/warfare/hallnews ... ocookies=1

Click it, it won't bite you.

And here is the section that he is buidling his whole case on. Please, spot the other problems in this list of 'future fixes'.

Feb 1st, 1999

My Thoughts on the Revisions:

* Parrying has become more effective versus archery. However, at least to me, it seems that it is now less effective versus melee weapons. Parrying is not completely finished because they still have to add the ability to deflect direct targeting magical spells.



* Channeling: Is going to be pretty much useless in PvP most of the time. Without armor, the mage is crowbait if a warrior gets up on him. For channeling to work the mage must be standing still, not attacking, not taking damage, and not using any other skill. This makes them a prime target for area effect spells or explosion potions. To be honest, I would just keep the mage in plate mail and use the normal regeneration rates and say to hell with channeling.



* Swing Rates: Now we have swing rates striking at the beginning of each attack. This dam near offsets the entire reason for the weapons revision. If they were going to do this, then they shouldn't have bothered to even revise the weapons. The weapons revision purpose was to use damage + weapon speed and bring the weapons up to snuff between the skill classes. Now its just damage vs damage, with speed being taken totally out. I think that a kryss or katana wielder should be able to stick and move out of the way of a clumsy halberd. Speed and damage balanced all weapons out, but I don't like this new change. *



* Evaluate Int: Renders the magic resist skill nearly useless. You can GM this skill in 2-3 days, but it takes weeks or months to GM the resist skill. Until they fix the learning curve for Eval Int, it upsets the balance.



* Healing: Although they have not done this yet, they are talking about making healing require the use of both hands. I think this is a little too much, but I would be willing to deal with it if they made us have 1 free hand in order to heal.



* Disarming Weapons: gives a 2 second delay. Ok, wonderful but this goes hand in hand with the hit being calculated at the beginning of each swing to cause further inbalances.

How many mistakes did you spot? I see 6, included the last one.

And Faust, I need not prove something didn't exist when I agree with you that disarm delays DO EXIST. It was the only way to implement Insta-Hit Damage First.

I only disagree with a flat disarm timer.

Look at the quote above, can you see why I have doubt about your source?

You really should learn to count...

Correct:
- Parry was fixed to block arrows when it previously did not.
- Channeling(Meditation) was added.
- Swing rates were changed... Insta hit was added the last time I checked...
- Eval Int was added to base magery damage from...
- Disarm delay was CONFIRMED to be added.

Incorrect:
- Parry never did receive the ability to deflect missile spells, although was talked about significantly even after the 1st of February in UOHOC logs.
- Healing never did receive the requirement to have two hands free for obvious reasons.

Was math not a highlight in your life?

If you ask me the odds are in favor of the delay compared to your theory. I would rather trust a 72% probability than a 28% where you're standing.

Don't make me do this man...

To add to your cleaver observations...

Evaluate Int: Renders the magic resist skill nearly useless.

that's 3
That's not the case is it?

Channeling: Is going to be pretty much useless in PvP most of the time

that's 4
He wasn't aware of how to use it. Seemed to like using plate over the benefits of med.

Swing Rates: ... Now its just damage vs damage, with speed being taken totally out.

that's 5
Speed is what kills in melee and what we are arguing about.

Disarming Weapons: gives a 2 second delay.

and that's 6 wrong things and the point of this discussion.

Please Faust. What else are you going to come up with?

[Faust]

The facts still remain along with your lack of credibility of poor research.

[Kraarug]

Poor research... what exactly is poor?

The source of your whole case is what lacks credibility. And your behavior, your attempt at bullying, and your try to move this discussion off your inability to prove your case just shows how desperate you are and how flimsy your theory is.

Are you ready for another round of discussion on the facts?

Let's take for instance your idea that the first bug for a quick Hally swing used the swaping out the hally's cool down timer with that of the katana.

Code: Select all

I believe that there was a 500 ms timer between disarm and any other action on UO.  In testing here on UOSA I am able to cycle a weapon in 600 ms.  (from disarm old to rearm new)

Anyway, using the 500 ms cycle, a cycle between a hally and katana would be 500 ms and a recycle would be another 500 ms for a total of 1000 ms or 1 second right?  

Add to that the 'cool down timing' of the katana itself.  I think the best case at 25 stamina we are looking at a 2.07 seconds but in OSI time, with 250 ms ticks, we need to set that to 2.25 seconds.

Now, unless I'm forgetting something, that puts this bug at a 3.25 seconds for the best hit scenario.

What am I doing wrong? Is something wrong with the math or the assumptions of how the mechanics worked.

The 'average' 2 second delay you have suggested is 1.25 seconds faster than the timeline of events calculated above.

If the math and assumptions above hold true, we would have to believe that OSI intentionally excellerated the problem from 3.25 seconds to 2 seconds and announced in a patch they fixed the problem with a slow weapon being manipulated to swing faster.

Even without the cycle times, just the katana cool down timer itself would put the wait at 2.25 seconds.

For what you want to have been the case OSI would have had to :

• Ignore the stamina dependant swing timers they just put in completely
  Or act as if players had 800 stamina at all times when using a Hally.
  Have had to replace one bug with a worse one
  Ignore the 97 Patch dealing with swing timers
  Posted they fixed a bug and made it worse on purpose

Gamers and those that write about UO and OSI in 1999 would have had to be MUM on the whole situation.


This sounds way too far fetched for me to believe and the best part is that it's all based upon one website filled with wrong information.