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Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:51 pm
by Zorce
r0b wrote:When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
QFT
and weather? are you kidding me? UO had the worse weather system and bugs ever. lol
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:58 pm
by Kraarug
Ranged target was possible since October 6 1999.
Also, there were some serious additions and help to skill building with the Skill agents. There were basically canned skill macros.
To be very clear here:
Modifying Razor will not produce anything more accurate than what was available at the time.
The modification suggest will only CHANGE what is available but not yield anything more accurate. There several UOA features missing from Razor such as the skill agents and recycle agents that are addressed differently through razor via it's macro scripting.
Nerfing Razor will only cause issues that make connecting to and playing this shard more difficult without delivering era accuracy.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:19 pm
by Mirage
Kraarug wrote:Ranged target was possible since October 6 1999.
Also, there were some serious additions and help to skill building with the Skill agents. There were basically canned skill macros.
To be very clear here:
Modifying Razor will not produce anything more accurate than what was available at the time.
The modification suggest will only CHANGE what is available but not yield anything more accurate. There several UOA features missing from Razor such as the skill agents and recycle agents that are addressed differently through razor via it's macro scripting.
Nerfing Razor will only cause issues that make connecting to and playing this shard more difficult without delivering era accuracy.
You obviously played OSI.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:31 pm
by Kraarug
I guess my point is that there is no net gain towards era accuracy by trying to nerf razor.
It's valueless effort until something that better emulates all the features of UOA is developed and implemented.
Just taking away random Razor features and still producing an non era accurate result is just not worth the time or effort.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:33 pm
by Hemperor
Kraarug wrote:I guess my point is that there is no net gain towards era accuracy by trying to nerf razor.
It's valueless effort until something that better emulates all the features of UOA is developed and implemented.
Just taking away random Razor features and still producing an non era accurate result is just not worth the time or effort.
I completely disagree, it's almost propaganda you guys are spewing at this point with no truth to it.
The effort and time to implement this is zero, the script is already made. I've asked this before, what the hell is your train of thought that leads you to the belief that disabling INACCURATE features to be INACCURATE?
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:46 pm
by Kraarug
Hemperor wrote:Kraarug wrote:I guess my point is that there is no net gain towards era accuracy by trying to nerf razor.
It's valueless effort until something that better emulates all the features of UOA is developed and implemented.
Just taking away random Razor features and still producing an non era accurate result is just not worth the time or effort.
I completely disagree, it's almost propaganda you guys are spewing at this point with no truth to it.
The effort and time to implement this is zero, the script is already made. I've asked this before, what the hell is your train of thought that leads you to the belief that disabling INACCURATE features to be INACCURATE?
Hemp, you will learn that the effort to script and 'make a change' is very small compared to the effort to address and maintain that change. You seem to want to spend admin and development time on insignificant matters like water and I think it's because a) you do not comprehend what resources would be required to deal with this change and b) you are not the one that will have to address it.
So let's ignore the facts that the effort to make the change is considerably more than just scripting something small and modifying the instructions to players on how to now connect to UOSA and look at the the NET EFFECT.
Code: Select all
Razor : Inaccurate
Nerfed Razor: Inaccurate
No Razor: Inaccurate
All net effects are the same, an naccurate treatment of the shard.
So, if the net effects are the same, one should look at the long view and consider the effort involved in making a change.
Code: Select all
Keeping Razor As Is: NO NEW EFFORT, NO CHANGE.
Nerfing Razor: Modifying script, requiring all players to use razor, dealing with board questions and complaints, risk losing new players due to connection barriers, risk of losing old players due to change, patrolling the shard for claims of illegal razor like features.
No Razor: Modify shard, requiring all players to connect with the client only, dealing with board questions and complaints, risk losing new players due to connection barriers, risk of losing old players due to change, patrolling the shard for claims of illegal any and all macro programs.
So, I don't know what they are teaching you in school now but if I had a choice between 3 actions that bring the same net effect and one does not require any additional or new effort and 0 additional risk, well, then it would be pretty clear to me on what to do.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:51 pm
by Duke Jones
Well how about this...
Sure, razor, and addressing razor might not be era accurate, but taking a look at documented Era policy, actually ENFORCING IT (when we are at the point in development to do so) and limiting razor to reflect these policies?
True Gameplay Mechanics and policy go hand-in-hand. It's hard to have one without the other.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:51 pm
by Hemperor
Let me add to your very biased point of view:
Modified Razor: Much more accurate than just normal Razor. I have spoken with Derrick before and he agrees that the amount of people not connecting through Razor at any given time can be counted on half a hand, and that's being generous.
Again, "people will quit" is such a bullshit point...you can see it in just about every major accuracy topic that has ever gone on on this shard, just drop it.
So since we can't make Razor 100% accurate, we shouldn't do any changes that can make it many times more accurate?
Come on now.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:55 pm
by Tron
actually, Krarug, making those changes isn't difficult at all.
a few shards run razor required logon with certain razor features disabled and its not something out of scope with derricks abilities or time in the slightest
and i'd bet all the jews in jerusalem that the number of people not using razor is an insignificant one.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:00 pm
by Kraarug
Hemperor wrote:Let me add to your very biased point of view:
Modified Razor: Much more accurate than just normal Razor. I have spoken with Derrick before and he agrees that the amount of people not connecting through Razor at any given time can be counted on half a hand, and that's being generous.
Again, "people will quit" is such a bullshit point...you can see it in just about every major accuracy topic that has ever gone on on this shard, just drop it.
So since we can't make Razor 100% accurate, we shouldn't do any changes that can make it many times more accurate?
Come on now.
I've laid out my case and you can call it biased if you want. I think it's laid rather logically.
But to be even clearer...
So since we can't make Razor 100% accurate, we shouldn't do any changes that can make it *edited* more accurate?
Exactly, because that direction comes with additional effort and risk for little to 0 benefit.
Right now, I use Razors script and loops features to compensate for the lack of a recycle agent.
Getting rid of 'loop' maybe seem like it's an era accurate move, but it doesn't address how Razor was developed and how loop can be used to create era accurate features.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:21 pm
by Downs
I think this is a petty change trying to steer this free shard in the direction another shard that "someone" was briefly involved in took. If it's implemented, then it's that much harder for new people to get established here.
I'm fine with era accuracy, but adding this inconvenience will only make ppl use other methods to loop macros, or decide to not start playing here.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:25 pm
by Tron
Downs wrote:I think this is a petty change trying to steer this free shard in the direction another shard that "someone" was briefly involved in took. If it's implemented, then it's that much harder for new people to get established here.
I'm fine with era accuracy, but adding this inconvenience will only make ppl use other methods to loop macros, or decide to not start playing here.
what?
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:30 pm
by Duke Jones
Downs wrote:If it's implemented, then it's that much harder for new people to get established here.
I'm fine with era accuracy, but adding this inconvenience will only make ppl use other methods to loop macros, or decide to not start playing here.
In all fairness Downs, what's the point of implementing the old era-accurate changes (such as skill gain) if we want it easier for new players to become "established?" If you want to make that a point, it would be better to go back to production shard skill gain, or just quicker skill gain, so people wont have to spend all their starting time afk macroing for a week or so.
Yes, things might be hard for new players, but the (albeit arduous) ability to climb from 100 gold and newbie items, to the almost limitless success, makes it all the sweeter. you know?
And going for lazy/easy gameplay automation often makes the T2A accurate changes kinda pointless.
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:50 pm
by Downs
Established was probably the wrong word to use.
Maybe i am a little bias in my thinking cause i definitely use razor for a lot of things. I won't argue it's a bit too powerful in some regards, but disabling everything on that list of features is a bit excessive.
I side with Kraarug on this. If we're gonna consider this, then we need something UOA-like to replace it.
Also remember reading the rules before you decided to start playing here:
*We allow unattended macroing with Razor
*You may not gather resources or items unattended. This includes mining, lumberjacking, lockpicking in dungeons, cotton pickin', and fishing in deep water.
Why change the rules on looping macros?
Re: Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:51 pm
by Kraarug
Tron wrote:actually, Krarug, making those changes isn't difficult at all.
a few shards run razor required logon with certain razor features disabled and its not something out of scope with derricks abilities or time in the slightest
and i'd bet all the jews in jerusalem that the number of people not using razor is an insignificant one.
And I bet the number of players moving on to EUO would not be insignificant either should some of these changes come to pass.