UO Second Age

Get some facts straight before posting next time.

• The shard is using Phase One housing, not Phase Two.
• Phase Three is not the correct housing for this shard.
• The cutoff date is November '99 when Phase Two was patched into the game.

The only thing you are right about is that the current issue lies with the housing system. We should patch up to the end of September if we choose to keep Phase One. However, if we choose to keep some of the major additions that can't really be removed such as runebooks, kegs, and skill locks than we should simply patch up to the end of November '99 instead of everything in that month besides the housing system from that patch.

Faust wrote:Get some facts straight before posting next time.

• The shard is using Phase One housing, not Phase Two.
• Phase Three is not the correct housing for this shard.
• The cutoff date is November '99 when Phase Two was patched into the game.

The only thing you are right about is that the current issue lies with the housing system. We should patch up to the end of September if we choose to keep Phase One. However, if we choose to keep some of the major additions that can't really be removed such as runebooks, kegs, and skill locks than we should simply patch up to the end of November '99 instead of everything in that month besides the housing system from that patch.

The only thing I got wrong was mixing up II and III.

• The shard is not using Phase One housing. It is using a custom housing system that never existed at any time on OSI.
• Phase Two is the correct housing. So I accidentally advanced the numbers by one.
• The cutoff date is specifically November 23 '99 when Phase Two was patched into the game.
• Bullet points make redundant blathering over an irrelevant error seem like you have more substance.

We are using Phase One housing with co-owners... something that should be fixed one way or the other based on the last phrase in my previous response in this thread.

bismuth wrote:

• The shard is not using Phase One housing. It is using a custom housing system that never existed at any time on OSI.

Agreed, While coowners, and locking down stacked items are the only aspects of the Nov housing system on the shard (that I'm aware of), and this is a clear inconsistancy as mentioned in other threads. Addidionally, there is no time in which co-owners could own other houses so the error in the housing system does go way beyond just mixing a little bit of Nov '99 into it.

Runebooks, kegs and skill locks will not likely be removed. This has been hashed out elsewhere in abundance.

bismuth wrote:The problem with this shard is that era inaccuracy IS OKAY, but only if it benefits the "right" kind of players.

Would you please list these "right" kind of players?

I am having trouble determining from your post which players are "right".

Or, is being the "right" kind of player based on your subjective opinion on what the "right" kind of player is?

I am sorry I read this thread.

Biohazard wrote:I am sorry I read this thread.

And I am sorry you posted in it.

So anyways, TLDR before this post becomes TLDR.

Someone please look at the people who have posted in this thread as a clear indication of the attitude on the forums that doesn't necessarily represent the attitude in game.

Derrick and faust are clearly "Accuracy nazi's" by general definition, and its their right as this is what the shard was founded to be- if I had come here and seen 100% accuracy to pre Nov 23'd changes, I'd have nothing to say about it, But I still point out the obvious inconsistency of Trammel style events that will forever be inaccurate and say "Well, is it right because you say it is, or is it right because thats the way it was?" That seems to be what I don't understand about this, and I am in favor of events. Again, I love this shard but this is something I think you guys could be more clear on to people who are new. Are we going for 100% accuracy to November 22nd? If so, I repeat, why be inconsistent? PvPers get huge rewards for what is a zero risk activity, while house decoration can be as perilous as putting all your money in your bag and running around naked in Deceit(if certain guilds have you marked for a looting). Seems amazingly hypocritical.

Also clear is the "Haha we're house looters/griefers/bug exploiters and the GM's will always back it up regardless of era" message that the house looting community seems to transmit. Thats fine and well, but what the hell do you expect said people to say? Why does it make their argument legitimate at all as an argument for or against a change as they will always argue FOR house looting no matter how inaccurate some people seem to think it is -its just that the Dev's opinions are in line with theirs right now, which may or may not change. Again, not arguing that the dev's are wrong. My misunderstanding is simply, is this a rigid museum that ignores all player feedback or proposed changes or is it some other strange conglomeration of rules with a look at changes that help/hinder the shard. It's obvious what Faust believes, and if things were the way he wants, I'd completely favor his opinion.

Again, that's fine and well- it doesn't take a genius to accept that Derrick's say is 100% correct simply because he can do whatever he wants with his shard. And please Don't take that the wrong way- I'm shocked at the dialogue he has with players and how fairly he operates a private shard- I just don't necessarily believe the forums are accurate for the 350 people that don't post on the forums :-p

I have never seen Blackfoot, the biggest decorator on this shard, argue loudly in favor of more lockdowns, so why must looters defend themselves if this is never leaving and will be here forever? Could it be that you use the server mechanics to be as big of a nuisance as possible and would find a way to do this on any game with any ruleset with an excuse to not feel guilty about it because the issues of the time allow it? I do know this, almost every unlocked home I have come across is empty. I might see a secure chest, but overall decoration is something I remember being very very popular on retail. Most houses had it.

Does this mean that house looting is bad? It's a complicated issue. In real life if you steal all my stuff there's a chance you'll get away with it, but there are many many things to discourage this. You stay blue in UO when house looting, so the owner who isn't there can do nothing once the item is in your bag, and you can go in front of a guard and yell "Hey I stole that loser's stuff" with no penalty whatsoever- I am assuming this is why they got rid of it at the end of T2A. NO PLAYER of ANY game likes to feel like they aren't in control of aspects of their character that they have invested a LOT of time into- this is something WoW found out pretty fast in the early days of 30 second fear PvP. So its a crappy trade- Safe houses that are open to the public with burglary nonexistent, or basically living in one big steal anything not nailed down with no cops which is more accurate to a lawless fantasy land. Again, I am obviously in favor of decoration, but I admit I am biased in that regard so my opinion on that is just that, my opinion.


Again, if derrick comes in and says "Thats the way it is" end of discussion as far as I'm concerned as a guest on a Very amazing free shard with quite a good community, I am just trying to understand why everyone is so quick to tell me to go to hell when I ask these kinds of questions.

Ollie wrote:

Biohazard wrote:I am sorry I read this thread.

And I am sorry you posted in it.


Someone please look at the people who have posted in this thread as a clear indication of the attitude on the forums that doesn't necessarily represent the attitude in game.

Derrick and faust are clearly "Accuracy nazi's" by general definition, and its their right as this is what the shard was founded to be- if I had come here and seen 100% accuracy to pre Nov 23'd changes, I'd have nothing to say about it, But I still point out the obvious inconsistency of Trammel style events that will forever be inaccurate and say "Well, is it right because you say it is, or is it right because thats the way it was?" That seems to be what I don't understand about this, and I am in favor of events. Again, I love this shard but this is something I think you guys could be more clear on to people who are new. Are we going for 100% accuracy to November 22nd? If so, I repeat, why be inconsistent? PvPers get huge rewards for what is a zero risk activity, while house decoration can be as perilous as putting all your money in your bag and running around naked in Deceit(if certain guilds have you marked for a looting). Seems amazingly hypocritical.

Also clear is the "Haha we're house looters/griefers/bug exploiters and the GM's will always back it up regardless of era" message that the house looting community seems to transmit. Thats fine and well, but what the hell do you expect said people to say? Why does it make their argument legitimate at all as an argument for or against a change as they will always argue FOR house looting no matter how inaccurate some people seem to think it is -its just that the Dev's opinions are in line with theirs right now, which may or may not change. Again, not arguing that the dev's are wrong. My misunderstanding is simply, is this a rigid museum that ignores all player feedback or proposed changes or is it some other strange conglomeration of rules with a look at changes that help/hinder the shard. It's obvious what Faust believes, and if things were the way he wants, I'd completely favor his opinion.

Again, that's fine and well- it doesn't take a genius to accept that Derrick's say is 100% correct simply because he can do whatever he wants with his shard. And please Don't take that the wrong way- I'm shocked at the dialogue he has with players and how fairly he operates a private shard- I just don't necessarily believe the forums are accurate for the 350 people that don't post on the forums :-p

I have never seen Blackfoot, the biggest decorator on this shard, argue loudly in favor of more lockdowns, so why must looters defend themselves if this is never leaving and will be here forever? Could it be that you use the server mechanics to be as big of a nuisance as possible and would find a way to do this on any game with any ruleset with an excuse to not feel guilty about it because the wonky issues of the time allow it?

Again, if derrick comes in and says "Thats the way it is" end of discussion as far as I'm concerned as a guest on a Very amazing free shard with quite a good community, I am just trying to understand why everyone is so quick to tell me to go to hell when I ask these kinds of questions.

I honestly did not read more than the first few sentences of that, I really would have read the rest, but it's all points you have tried to make elsewhere. So you are angry at a thief for looting you, we get it.

If you put a proper table barrier up, and always use detect hidden, nobody can loot you, ever. This style of houses allows an infinite amount of storage, it's better for everyone. The server is not catering to house-looters. Some people want to play a thief/burgular/whatever instead of a monster-hunter/PvP'er/crafter/rares-merchant, and it really is a legitimate class.

People here are so quick to point the "grief" finger. I think "griefing" is defined as something done that has no other benefit than degrading another players experience. People do not loot your house just to make you mad, they do it to take your stuff. I don't steal from you to make you mad, I make you mad so that I can steal from you, because I want your stuff. Clasically, people did not PK you just to make you mad, it's because you have stuff, and they want it.

It all comes down to your stuff, and me wanting it.

If someone were to say, follow you around casting harm on you everytime you tried to cast a spell, spammed text so you could not target a monster, chased you screaming racist obscenities (sadly common here it seems), that would be griefing you.

MatronDeWinter wrote:


I honestly did not read more than the first few sentences of that, I really would have read the rest, but it's all points you have tried to make elsewhere. So you are angry at a thief for looting you, we get it.

If you put a proper table barrier up, and always use detect hidden, nobody can loot you, ever. This style of houses allows an infinite amount of storage, it's better for everyone. The server is not catering to house-looters. Some people want to play a thief/burgular/whatever instead of a monster-hunter/PvP'er/crafter/rares-merchant, and it really is a legitimate class.

People here are so quick to point the "grief" finger. I think "griefing" is defined as something done that has no other benefit than degrading another players experience. People do not loot your house just to make you mad, they do it to take your stuff. I don't steal from you to make you mad, I make you mad so that I can steal from you, because I want your stuff. Clasically, people did not PK you just to make you mad, it's because you have stuff, and they want it.

It all comes down to your stuff, and me wanting it.

If someone were to say, follow you around casting harm on you everytime you tried to cast a spell, spammed text so you could not target a monster, chased you screaming racist obscenities (sadly common here it seems), that would be griefing you.

See, here is why I believe the issue is complicated. I agree with what you think about the subject, and ask anyone that knows me- Thieves and Pk's are something I have said are necessary to any healthy shard.

But here is where it gets odd. Much like checks- another thing that should be back- people find a way to get around the lack of something, as you said. Tables. Lots of tables. Every home has tables. Is this a way for rewarding the informed and punishing the ignorant? If its something that most people with valuables won't let you get away with, why even have it? When was the last time you robbed a house of many many valuable items because of a lack of tables? I have nothing in the tower I'm co-owned to and even that has tables protecting a couple items.

Instead of checks, people use Deeds. Instead of lockdowns, people use tables. It seems redundant since anyone who isn't an idiot won't leave their home open anyways, so what do you have to gain by being able to do it even though you rarely ever get to. I'd venture to say you'd have as much luck finding a home with no tables and valuables to steal as you would searching for IDOCs to loot upon collapse.

Even small homes have tables!

The result is that homes are locked, empty, or have a terrible looking table barrier. I have sympathy for your reasoning in this case, but I doubt it really has any effect on the items you find on any kind of basis. Of course I know you'll show me a picture of you looting a fruit basket or something, but for the most part you'd be hard pressed to convince me you've ever made big bucks from house looting on any kind of consistent basis compared to the amount of people actively searching for houses to loot.

This makes it an easy issue to simply dismiss since you can't rob 99% of houses anyways. That I agree with, I just think it looks bad.

And do not misunderstand, PK and thievery are not griefing. Honestly, I'll even give you enticing away people's pets even though I think it's pretty high caliber yet low-brow griefing. I have honestly only been robbed once, and I deserved it. Just as I have been entice griefed twice- one time didn't bother me because I was afk and deserved it.

To summarize if you flew to the bottom: I don't think you should have to do something in an incredibly stupid way when there were fixes to these things that had little to no effect on the game.

Ollie wrote:Of course I know you'll show me a picture of you looting a fruit basket or something, but for the most part you'd be hard pressed to convince me you've ever made big bucks from house looting on any kind of consistent basis compared to the amount of people actively searching for houses to loot.

This makes it an easy issue to simply dismiss since you can't rob 99% of houses anyways. That I agree with, I just think it looks bad.

Are you kidding me? Your reasoning is "because some players cannot easily find houses to loot, or lack the skill to sneak in, almost all of the houses here must be unlootable, and so, the benefit of "omg leet decoration" outweighs the cost of having a free, non-linear housing system".

MatronDeWinter wrote:

Ollie wrote:Of course I know you'll show me a picture of you looting a fruit basket or something, but for the most part you'd be hard pressed to convince me you've ever made big bucks from house looting on any kind of consistent basis compared to the amount of people actively searching for houses to loot.

This makes it an easy issue to simply dismiss since you can't rob 99% of houses anyways. That I agree with, I just think it looks bad.

Are you kidding me?

I am actually curious now, have you managed to steal a ton of valuable stuff regularly from house looting? I know of the reputation but I still find it hard to believe people on this shard actually keep valuables in unbarricaded homes that are unlocked.

Ollie wrote: I am actually curious now, have you managed to steal a ton of valuable stuff regularly?

There is a whole community of this.

What if I said to you, "Well, whenever I go farming I barely make any money, so I'm just going to assume that farming in general is virtually worthless, therefor we should remove all the monsters in the game, because the small benefit they may or may not have for a microscopic part of the community is not worth the cost of me constantly bumping into them, which slows down my in-game travel and drains my stamina."

MatronDeWinter wrote:

Ollie wrote: I am actually curious now, have you managed to steal a ton of valuable stuff regularly?

There is a whole community of this.

What if I said to you, "Well, whenever I go farming I barely make any money, so I'm just going to assume that farming in general is virtually worthless, therefor we should remove all the monsters in the game, because the small benefit they may or may not have for a microscopic part of the community is not worth the cost of be constantly bumping into them when I am trying to move around."

You have proper logic, but thats kind of hyperbolic. What about extorting money from blues in guard zones or you'll harass and entice away their pets? I mean, just because you can make money in some way does not mean it's automatically a legitimate process- though that's also hyperbole since most people do it just to be jerks. Again, I think we follow the same logic but disagree pretty fundamentally on what the situation in game is. The deeds I threw in just because I thought that was especially poorly thought out.

is the best crime one that you're caught doing but pay no consequences regardless of how much of a jerk you are about it? I don't think getting harassed by BPD is really any kind of punishment past it not being very funny.

I mean.. what is your definition of an acceptable action? Anything that can be done that doesn't violate the shard rules and get you banned, including obvious bugs and oversights? I don't think thats necessarily a bad way to look at it, I am just trying to understand where you're coming from.

oh and a final edit- Would you be in favor of a situation that didn't have any guard zones and required full player policing, or is using problems with guard zones simply part of the game?

Ollie wrote:Tables. Lots of tables. Every home has tables. Is this a way for rewarding the informed and punishing the ignorant?

I agree. The way housing is currently is pretty much as bad as it could possibly be. It is actually 100% secure for anyone who knows how to take advantage of the system. The only people ever at risk are newbies.

This will hopefully be fixed soon with housing system updates. Removing co-owners will be a good start, because then if you want more than 1 single person to be able to access a house you will have to ditch table walls. If fixes to keyrings go in at the same time then to access a house people will need to carry a key.

This will enable looting of higher value targets if you are skilled. It should take some of the focus off of victimizing newbies who don't know any better and bring a bit of risk back into the game for people who are already familiar with the mechanics.

bismuth wrote:

Ollie wrote:Tables. Lots of tables. Every home has tables. Is this a way for rewarding the informed and punishing the ignorant?

I agree. The way housing is currently is pretty much as bad as it could possibly be. It is actually 100% secure for anyone who knows how to take advantage of the system. The only people ever at risk are newbies.

This will hopefully be fixed soon with housing system updates. Removing co-owners will be a good start, because then if you want more than 1 single person to be able to access a house you will have to ditch table walls. If fixes to keyrings go in at the same time then to access a house people will need to carry a key.

This will enable looting of higher value targets if you are skilled. It should take some of the focus off of victimizing newbies who don't know any better and bring a bit of risk back into the game for people who are already familiar with the mechanics.

Secure containers that can be accessed by both sides of a barrier.

House sitters on different accounts that open locked doors.

Keys on keyrings in secure containers.

No way I'm ditching barriers when the changes come in.