Swing on the run (dexing)

[Roser]

nightshark of course its about era accuracy. I am under the assumption that this movement restriction matter resides in a grey area of t2a accuracy.

Two points here.

One, is there evidence that the movement restriction is in fact era accurate?

Two, was there a time during the t2a era in which there was no movement restriction (or at least different form what we have now)? if so, would it be such a a bad idea to choose one accurate mechanic over another, just like the staff decided with Phase 1 housing over Phase 2?

There is no denying that if dexers could swing on the run the shard would benefit by way of greater population.

If there is however empirical evidence supporting the current mechanic, and no evidence pointing to an alternate mechanic during this time, then this idea of mine really has no standing.

[Psilo]

I say we revert it back. Dexers were far better/balanced when there was "full swing on the run".

Right now playing a dexer is a pain and we have less population and dexers pvping because of it. I like fighting dexers but currently there is hardly any.

I propose we revert back to the other mechanic until we can REALLY prove it was there. Right now the evidence isn't that strong and this would have been noticeable even in 1999 with all the lagg and slow computers. Yet no one remembers it? People could cycle the hally, maybe not as fast, and yet no one hardly remembers this stupid "stop to swing" mechanic? I think the coding is wrong, if any mechanic like this was in it worked differently.

Overall UOSA would be doing better if we put this mechanic back. Population would increase, I know for a fact. Many people I know and my friends quit because of the "stop to swing" mechanic. Ruined dexers.

Gamebreaking mechanics need to be taken out if we aren't 100% sure the PVP is ALL correct. Having most of it correct and then having a 1 mechanic off can still make pvp suck. Might as well keep it playable until we get it 100% right, which may never happen.

We need to keep the pvp playable, nothing else is even changed. Pvm stays the same, crafting, economy and nothing else is effected except a bigger population.

We have instanced events, silver, and rewards and yet we can't make an exception to game-killing mechanics such as "stop for 1 second to hit"? I think we need to think outside of the box and consider the bigger picture, stop obsessing over shit because we already have events. Why not obsess over how incredibly inaccurate trammel is?

[Kaivan]

For those who are interested, the current mechanics are based off two pieces of information. The first is the decompiling of the demo code surrounding swing timers located here. The second is a UOR patch note that was part of a series of mini-patches released on the same day as UOR. The relevant line item is as follows:

Players using melee weapons in combat will now hold their swing until their target is in range. Additionally, the timer that determines melee weapon swing times (combat timer) will now advance as the player is moving. Thus, melee weapon users will no longer be required to stop moving before swinging.

I urge anyone who is interested in why our current mechanics are currently this way to read the two pieces of information. It's pretty important to understand these things in some level of detail in order to understand why things are set up the way they are on UOSA.

[Mens Rea]

Thing is Kaivy this is a mini-update - after they obliterated mages with their change.

The UO:R changes to swinging meant that a mage with with 25 dex had a long ass swing, and you had to stand there next to your target for ages until the swinging action was complete. While a dexer with 100 dex had a much shorter swing time - and iirc could actually pull off something akin to an insta-hit when they were in range. If your target ran out of your range during your swing then your swing would be wasted. The process went like this:

swing noise/action - pause - hit. The pause was based on your dex.

I think this mini-patch probably updated something changed from an earlier UO:R patch.

So the patches would have gone: T2A > UO:R > UO:R Mini-patch

[Kaivan]

Thing is Kaivy this is a mini-update - after they obliterated mages with their change.

The UO:R changes to swinging meant that a mage with with 25 dex had a long ass swing, and you had to stand there next to your target for ages until the swinging action was complete. While a dexer with 100 dex had a much shorter swing time - and iirc could actually pull off something akin to an insta-hit when they were in range. If your target ran out of your range during your swing then your swing would be wasted. The process went like this:

swing noise/action - pause - hit. The pause was based on your dex.

I think this mini-patch probably updated something changed from an earlier UO:R patch.

So the patches would have gone: T2A > UO:R > UO:R Mini-patch

Given the fact that in 2001, range checks for archery still existed when the hit was evaluated, and if the person was outside of the range of archery at that time, they would effectively miss their shot, its exceedingly unlikely that the patch note was referring to that. Specifically, here is a quote from a mid-2001 essay written on UOPowerGamers in support of that fact for archery (hit their website, search "archery" and then ctrl+f for part of the quote):

Archery is the weakest fighting skill, and only useful in few situations. It's advantage is that you can hit monsters (or players..) without having to stand directly next to them and getting hit back. The only other skill that allows you to do this is magery.
The drawbacks are the slow firing delay and long equip delay of the xbow and heavy xbow, the VERY limited range of bolts and arrows, the fact that you can't move until your weapon hits (or misses) it's target (Moving stops the shot), and that you can outrun arrows and bolts (!!).

Additionally, none of what is in that specific line item suggests that any of this was a fix for that issue in the first place. All of it is directed at the functionality of swings before the swing was started.

[Mens Rea]

Yeah but archery isn't at issue here. What I'm talking about is that it ties into what killed the 100 100 25 mage, at the same time that mind blast killed the 100 25 100 dexer. Everyone dropped swords/tactics in favour of inscription/poisoning because of the nonsense they conducted on melee.

You would see your char swing, and if they moved before the delay was finished you would not hit them - in UO:R anyway.

[Mens Rea]

http://update.uo.com/design_196.html
"Hitting and Dexterity
Currently, melee weapons check for whether a hit is successful or not in the beginning of the swing animation. This will now be scaled based on dexterity. The higher your dexterity, the earlier in your swing you hit. At very low dexterities, you will not hit until the end of your swing. "

[Kaivan]

http://update.uo.com/design_196.html
"Hitting and Dexterity
Currently, melee weapons check for whether a hit is successful or not in the beginning of the swing animation. This will now be scaled based on dexterity. The higher your dexterity, the earlier in your swing you hit. At very low dexterities, you will not hit until the end of your swing. "

I'm not sure how this relates to the subject. Determining the length of the swing animation before damage evaluation is entirely separate from determining swing advancement and whether a swing is held or not.

[Mens Rea]

The minipatch was a few hours after the initial publish of UO:R - they were fixing a mistake they made in the implementation of the changes to melee swings.

[Kaivan]

That's purely conjecture and isn't supported by the line item at all. Nowhere is it indicated that the change is designed as a bug fix.

[Mens Rea]

The current swing system is based on conjecture - in fact the UOSA patch note even says the changes are based on an inference taken from the mini-patch note, without any consideration given to the glaring abnormality of such a decisive change coming just hours after a major swing mechanics change in the UO:R publish.

I think the stronger inference is that the mini-patch came such a short time after swing mechanics were changed that it shows the UO:R publish unexpectedly changed the swing mechanics and had to be changed back.

[Kaivan]

That's purely a matter of opinion. Factually speaking, when we compare the patch note to the way things functioned in the demo, certain anomalies do exist, but none of them suggest that swinging on the run and holding your swing were ever together at the same time. Thus, using historical information, we made an inference on the patch note as to how things worked before that patch note went live with respect to swing advancement and movement.

If need be, I can go into more detail regarding the thought process.

[tanmits]

Since you made an inference one way, if that inference is detrimental to the shard can we infer it back the other way?

[Kaivan]

Unlikely, since the other inference is not based on any evidence at all.

[Mens Rea]

What I would ask is why the mini-patch was implemented such a short time after the initial UO:R publish if there if it was not for purposes of fixing an unintended change.

Surely the change would have been implemented in the UO:R publish otherwise?

There is evidence to show a change relating to swing timers and melee combat, and then a remedial patch only a few hours following. I think that is a very strong inference - in fact, the entire mini-patch is remedial issues arising from the UO:R patch.