The elephant in the shard.

[so.you.want.to.be...]

The idea here is to get rid of razor or revert to a more Era Accurate program like razor. So imagine doing resist and having to be at your computer actually clicking your char when casting to gain resist. Possible but not very fun which is why we play the game.

I GMed resist back in the day with EZ Macros, was really not that difficult...

[Hemperor]

I'd rather it take a little more effort to skill up than have this shard run in automation AFK for eternity.

Anyways, there's no denying the accuracy side to this issue and IMO this discussion should stop there. The only things I would think should even possibly be considered are client bugs etc as Batlin has mentioned, although I haven't seen any outlined.

[Batlin]

@Hemperor

The only things I would think should even possibly be considered are client bugs etc as Batlin has mentioned, although I haven't seen any outlined.

There's an almost complete list of client changes at uoguide,
http://www.uoguide.com/List_of_Classic_Client_Patches

To be accurate I'd guess we will all have to use the client 1.26.1 dated September 9, 1999. Starting from there you can read all fixes.

For example, client 1.26.2a:

We have released a new client patch designed to resolve the "container crash bug."

Also, how well do those old client works with UOAM? OSI made lots of protocol/implementation changes (http://www.joinuo.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=693) and I doubt UOAM will work. Razor btw requires atleast version 4.0.x (I forgot the exact version).

[Naljier]

kids, there is NOWAY to bring back the game experience you felt on UO circa 1999
find another way to get intouch with your childhood

[Anon Emous]

Ooo So if we go back that means the container bug would get unfixed? So black holing would be possible again. If thats the case im for it. I would love to be able to copy items again. That was total sarcasm if you couldn't pick up on it. Again i emphasize that Razor isnt doing anything that couldnt be done back them using a library of different programs.

[Kaivan]

Ooo So if we go back that means the container bug would get unfixed? So black holing would be possible again. If thats the case im for it. I would love to be able to copy items again. That was total sarcasm if you couldn't pick up on it. Again i emphasize that Razor isnt doing anything that couldnt be done back them using a library of different programs.

Client side bugs were not the culprit of duping, that was strictly a matter of synchronization between sub-servers.

As for the rest of this thread, while I do recognize the merit in only allowing UOA, it will actually do very little to prevent AFK macroing on the server (it could, in theory, reduce the macroing) due the the modicum of programs that work in tandem with UOA to produce working looped macros. Additionally, there are a lot of problems that must be dealt with in order to properly enable UOA use, and the use comes with significant problems for players. Many of them have been covered thus far, but there are many others that haven't been touched on, least of which is the difficulty in actually setting up the server to handle a 1.2x or 2.x client protocols properly (this also causes another concern: What update do we use in order to get UOA to work properly with these protocols).

The point of course is that the fallout of changes that would be necessary to ensure that this works properly in the long run are very sizable, and our attention is better served fixing mechanical issues when time allows.

On a side note: It should be mentioned that the argument that other players had it easier is not a valid argument for just about any change. This has happened before on UOSA, and was very common on OSI servers.

Edit: Also, this is purely a policy change, not a mechanical one. The existence of programs or hardware external to UOSA are not mechanics of UOSA.

[Pehiko]

I understand the point of removing razor and all but it would actually make the game easier for some player. It would give an handicap to the players that want to play the game exactly like it was back in 1998 but a huge advantage for player like me that love the era but wouldn't want to spend time doing everything by hand. You guys have to understand something, ultima online and runuo are pretty poorly coded for today's programing. It is extremely easy to script and to do everything you want afk if you know a bit of coding. Its fairly easy to find sourcecode for half finish software that can log you ingame, do what ever you ask him to do without ever opening the uo client. I won't give more info on this because its not fair play and I like the shard afk gatherer free but you will never be able to cancel or ban third party app.

NO I won't give any information or help anyone with such a software.
NO I'm not using any script or third party app.

But I don't think that removing razor and make the game harder will help the server pop or make the game more fun to play. I'm pretty sure it will make the server even more unbalance.

[Hemperor]

Good posts guys... I do see some important fixes in and after our target date for the client. When I briefly spoke to Derrick the other day about this, he was talking that a UO:R client may be better due to a number of fixes and ability to handle multiple maps.

The idea is that if we scaled back to a lower client and only allow say, UOAssist, well then the rules would be adjusted accordingly. Sure, someone may be able to script running around everywhere buying and selling AFK... But this would not be possible with UOA and would now be against the rules and far easier to detect.

The point of course is that the fallout of changes that would be necessary to ensure that this works properly in the long run are very sizable, and our attention is better served fixing mechanical issues when time allows.

I'm not sure just what is left on the mechanical side, but it's my understanding all that is left is very minor changes. The AFK issue has done a lot to destroy this shard's economy to anyone who's paying attention and hurt PVP and other things quite a bit as well. Not to make this topic about me, but I personally have little to no interest in playing a shard that is so heavily automated. The "rich" guys here do it all solely AFK, sure I could do the same, but I came to play UO. Again, matter of opinion, but I think by and large the community wants something done about this rather than a few minor inconsequential changes. This may very well not be the avenue to fix it, but I think we've made good progress on hashing it out so far at least.

EDIT:

Also, how well do those old client works with UOAM? OSI made lots of protocol/implementation changes (http://www.joinuo.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=693) and I doubt UOAM will work. Razor btw requires atleast version 4.0.x (I forgot the exact version).

How ever well they worked in era, sounds fitting I understand the protocols have changed quite a bit, infact that's the entire premise of this topic.

[Light Shade]

I think that, from an Era Accuracty viewpoint, something definitely needs to be done about the AFK/Automatons not actually playing this game...

As it is, a perfectly logical phrase for this shard could be, "Come To UOSA! Where You Don't Have To Actually Play The Game To Succeed!"

I think we can all agree how bad that completely true statement looks on its surface. So why do we allow it? Why do we allow something that is not Era-Accurate? At the very least, removing the AFK/Automatons from the game would increase that "replayability" of the game.

[Anon Emous]

I hate to beat the bush but to be honest afk doing anything is era accurate. If anything you could place the same rules as OSI. If your caught afk macroing your will be banned, but to be honest OSI didnt really enforce it. If you were caught afk macroing they put you in jail or gave you a 72 hour ban at most. You cant stop people from automating things you could only prevent them from doing it while away from the keyboard or make it more difficult.

[LudKrud]

Just to be clear on this........elephant= NEA.......

[Stranger]

I like what we have now

UOAssist is not available for free shards since Jun 20, 2000. Razor is the only option we have. Sure, an installer can be made enforcing an era accurate version of the client and installed in such a way it does not cause problems for players connecting to other shards, but is it worth it? Old versions can be found on the waybackmachine and even some shards out there provide UOAssist as download, but I'm not sure how legal those are...

Old clients have their own bugs and issues. Who's gonna fix/maintain that? Dagon, who made the great music patch and the new client installer, hasn't logged on for more than a year. (even I didn't play during the last year but still followed these forums).
Razor is maintained and kept up to date by the RunUO team.

The only plus side of using a UOSA specific client is that client encryption can be enabled and it can be made more difficult for players to use macro utilities which are forbidden on this shard. But then again, any binary patch made to an old client can be analyzed quickly and circumvented.

Don't forget that Light hack is almost as old as UO itself, so switching to an old client to avoid that is really pointless.

The years between UOSA and OSI (UO:R) I played Sphere shards, always with old clients. I can't remember a single reoccurring bug, maybe you can fill me in. In my experience, the new client is far more prone to lockups and resource hogging, although this could be a later Windows issue.

We don't need Razor at all. It's the cause of the serious issues on this shard and the alibi for scripters. There are other "helpers" such as UOExtreme, which I'm not familiar with, but I know all these badass tank mages weren't dragging their hallys on.

I don't know the exact legalities but I can't imagine there being any issue in using older clients, we wouldn't be the first or hundredth to do it.

I would just like to emphasise my opinion that I think all this AFK BS that goes on on this shard is extremely detrimental, it really makes me not want to play and I know the same can be said for many others. It takes so much out of the UO experience and this is about all that can be done about it.

Again, if we would like to bend this policy due to convenience etc. then the same should be done for horse stamina, stables, bandages and the countless other things.

EDIT: I would just like to again restate, I'm a noob on the subject, a young boy in the era, Thanks for the correction on UOAssist. Anyone with good hard info on client issues or "helper" programs that would be available would be awesome.

Hemperor I swear you do nothing all day but look for things to make players lives here more tedious. This is not an elephant, it a non issue. Almost everyone had UOA back then, and razor is pretty darn close to UOA, except UOA cost 15$.

[Hemperor]

I like what we have now

UOAssist is not available for free shards since Jun 20, 2000. Razor is the only option we have. Sure, an installer can be made enforcing an era accurate version of the client and installed in such a way it does not cause problems for players connecting to other shards, but is it worth it? Old versions can be found on the waybackmachine and even some shards out there provide UOAssist as download, but I'm not sure how legal those are...

Old clients have their own bugs and issues. Who's gonna fix/maintain that? Dagon, who made the great music patch and the new client installer, hasn't logged on for more than a year. (even I didn't play during the last year but still followed these forums).
Razor is maintained and kept up to date by the RunUO team.

The only plus side of using a UOSA specific client is that client encryption can be enabled and it can be made more difficult for players to use macro utilities which are forbidden on this shard. But then again, any binary patch made to an old client can be analyzed quickly and circumvented.

Don't forget that Light hack is almost as old as UO itself, so switching to an old client to avoid that is really pointless.

The years between UOSA and OSI (UO:R) I played Sphere shards, always with old clients. I can't remember a single reoccurring bug, maybe you can fill me in. In my experience, the new client is far more prone to lockups and resource hogging, although this could be a later Windows issue.

We don't need Razor at all. It's the cause of the serious issues on this shard and the alibi for scripters. There are other "helpers" such as UOExtreme, which I'm not familiar with, but I know all these badass tank mages weren't dragging their hallys on.

I don't know the exact legalities but I can't imagine there being any issue in using older clients, we wouldn't be the first or hundredth to do it.

I would just like to emphasise my opinion that I think all this AFK BS that goes on on this shard is extremely detrimental, it really makes me not want to play and I know the same can be said for many others. It takes so much out of the UO experience and this is about all that can be done about it.

Again, if we would like to bend this policy due to convenience etc. then the same should be done for horse stamina, stables, bandages and the countless other things.

EDIT: I would just like to again restate, I'm a noob on the subject, a young boy in the era, Thanks for the correction on UOAssist. Anyone with good hard info on client issues or "helper" programs that would be available would be awesome.

Hemperor I swear you do nothing all day but look for things to make players lives here more tedious. This is not an elephant, it a non issue. Almost everyone had UOA back then, and razor is pretty darn close to UOA, except UOA cost 15$.

Make people's lives harder? It's a matter of accuracy, and I guess you haven't noticed how people are enjoying automating with 3+ clients every single possible way they can think of. I know UOA wasn't capable of a lot of this.

[Stranger]

I like what we have now

UOAssist is not available for free shards since Jun 20, 2000. Razor is the only option we have. Sure, an installer can be made enforcing an era accurate version of the client and installed in such a way it does not cause problems for players connecting to other shards, but is it worth it? Old versions can be found on the waybackmachine and even some shards out there provide UOAssist as download, but I'm not sure how legal those are...

Old clients have their own bugs and issues. Who's gonna fix/maintain that? Dagon, who made the great music patch and the new client installer, hasn't logged on for more than a year. (even I didn't play during the last year but still followed these forums).
Razor is maintained and kept up to date by the RunUO team.

The only plus side of using a UOSA specific client is that client encryption can be enabled and it can be made more difficult for players to use macro utilities which are forbidden on this shard. But then again, any binary patch made to an old client can be analyzed quickly and circumvented.

Don't forget that Light hack is almost as old as UO itself, so switching to an old client to avoid that is really pointless.

The years between UOSA and OSI (UO:R) I played Sphere shards, always with old clients. I can't remember a single reoccurring bug, maybe you can fill me in. In my experience, the new client is far more prone to lockups and resource hogging, although this could be a later Windows issue.

We don't need Razor at all. It's the cause of the serious issues on this shard and the alibi for scripters. There are other "helpers" such as UOExtreme, which I'm not familiar with, but I know all these badass tank mages weren't dragging their hallys on.

I don't know the exact legalities but I can't imagine there being any issue in using older clients, we wouldn't be the first or hundredth to do it.

I would just like to emphasise my opinion that I think all this AFK BS that goes on on this shard is extremely detrimental, it really makes me not want to play and I know the same can be said for many others. It takes so much out of the UO experience and this is about all that can be done about it.

Again, if we would like to bend this policy due to convenience etc. then the same should be done for horse stamina, stables, bandages and the countless other things.

EDIT: I would just like to again restate, I'm a noob on the subject, a young boy in the era, Thanks for the correction on UOAssist. Anyone with good hard info on client issues or "helper" programs that would be available would be awesome.

Hemperor I swear you do nothing all day but look for things to make players lives here more tedious. This is not an elephant, it a non issue. Almost everyone had UOA back then, and razor is pretty darn close to UOA, except UOA cost 15$.

Make people's lives harder? It's a matter of accuracy, and I guess you haven't noticed how people are enjoying automating with 3+ clients every single possible way they can think of. I know UOA wasn't capable of a lot of this.

If you are concerned with accuracy spend your time proving how broken stableing is here. Or horse stamina. Or a cause that actually helps people. You seem to single out the "Accuracy" issues that make things worse, like cutting bandages 1 at a time.

[Batlin]

Make people's lives harder? It's a matter of accuracy, and I guess you haven't noticed how people are enjoying automating with 3+ clients every single possible way they can think of. I know UOA wasn't capable of a lot of this.

It's like Kaivan said, Hemperor. I don't feel this is really an accuracy issue. You'd better buy a 3rd hand Pentium with Windows 98 (the first edition) and play using that.

Enforcing UOA will only make the gap between computer minded guys and the average player bigger. Free shards don't use encryption, one can easily use an interface library to WinPCap to interpret packets and text messages and then send keystrokes to the client to behave accordingly. What about OpenCV, take a screenshot and analyze it. Imagine, you're running an afk macro and your screen turns gray? Have your program send a mail or sms to yourself... 12 years ago I wouldn't know about those things. The technology wasn't widely avaible. Now it is. Enforcing UOA, for me, feels like "mopping the floor with the crane open" (direct translation of a Dutch expression).

And it wouldn't even be against the shard rules, as Derrick currently only forbids programs that interfere with the packet stream directly (besides Razor).

The bigger problem imho is that every one can have 3 accounts but that's another discussion. But even that is unsolvable, VPN's, computers at work, high speed bandwith, multiple ISP's at home. People with the resources can cheat the system easily without ever being detected.

The elephant is more a mouse.