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Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:45 pm
by Pirul
There's one safe tile in castles IF the CY isn't compromised, otherwise you're hosed.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:50 pm
by HardCore
I think you wrote that incorrectly or I'm just a bad reader.
If the CY isn't compromised, you are pretty much safe unless you are in the perimeter areas.
If the CY is compromised, you might be 100% screwed no matter where you are.
I'm guessing there are safe tiles in keeps and castles. Again, compromised walls of keeps might change those safe spots.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:55 pm
by Loathed
Kaivan wrote:Pirul wrote:You've never been able to teleport in houses, but some of the other "fixes" I am skeptical about. Mainly the no-summon on boats/houses.
I think this "bug" opened an ugly can of worms.
Casting summons in houses and on boats has been cross referenced between the demo, the patch notes, and with newsgroup and live OSI servers. Information indicates that energy vortex and blade spirit could be cast onto boats during the era (and still can be on live OSI servers), and that neither could be cast into a house (although blade spirits could be for a very short period of about 2 months during the beginning of the era). Right now, this is our best information, and isn't a matter of picking and choosing what works in order to contend with this. In fact, I've spoken with Derrick in the last week or so and he is aware of the issues with summons on boats, and hopefully it will be fixed at some time in the near future.
Loathed wrote:ya i'm not sure but how can a target be hit in the very center of a tower, 3rd floor from the back side? that isn't a los issue? I should be able to teleport to the spot the person casted at from the spot he targeted, right? if LoS is working properly on that- than that would be true, yes?
The reason you can be hit while standing within a tower is due to the fact that area of effect spells are only concerned with whether the caster can see the tile or object they originally target. If that can be achieved, then the area of effect spell will hit anyone within two tiles of the target location or object, completely ignoring line of sight and the z axis of those victims. This creates a one way relationship in terms of targeting, where it is typically impossible to actually be at the targeted location, and in the cases where it is possible, teleportation is prevented due to the interaction with multiobjects.
ok so i should be able to harm the caster, were i to stand on the very same tile he/she is targeting in order to hit players standing in the center. but you can't target through walls, so how is the player targeting through a wall, same floor or floors above and having a success.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:12 pm
by Pirul
HardCore wrote:I think you wrote that incorrectly or I'm just a bad reader.
If the CY isn't compromised, you are pretty much safe unless you are in the perimeter areas.
If the CY is compromised, you might be 100% screwed no matter where you are.
I'm guessing there are safe tiles in keeps and castles. Again, compromised walls of keeps might change those safe spots.
Not exactly, but I'll rephrase:
If the CY isn't compromised, you are pretty much safe in one tile only.
If the CY is compromised, you are 100% screwed no matter where you are.
You are also hosed in a keep regardless of keep courtyard runes.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:33 pm
by Arsen
i just can repeat my self. make it bannable to kill someone via los exploit.
i dont know why this never happend to me on real osi back in the days.
maybe it was because no one used razor or simply it didnt work.
all they do is run by and kill ppl inside a house within a second. whats the point in tolerating this?
iam all for era accuracy (when its 100% proven) but i think a large shard with experienced staff should put a ceiling on abusing something like this.
seriously
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:41 pm
by Kaivan
Loathed wrote:Kaivan wrote:Pirul wrote:You've never been able to teleport in houses, but some of the other "fixes" I am skeptical about. Mainly the no-summon on boats/houses.
I think this "bug" opened an ugly can of worms.
Casting summons in houses and on boats has been cross referenced between the demo, the patch notes, and with newsgroup and live OSI servers. Information indicates that energy vortex and blade spirit could be cast onto boats during the era (and still can be on live OSI servers), and that neither could be cast into a house (although blade spirits could be for a very short period of about 2 months during the beginning of the era). Right now, this is our best information, and isn't a matter of picking and choosing what works in order to contend with this. In fact, I've spoken with Derrick in the last week or so and he is aware of the issues with summons on boats, and hopefully it will be fixed at some time in the near future.
Loathed wrote:ya i'm not sure but how can a target be hit in the very center of a tower, 3rd floor from the back side? that isn't a los issue? I should be able to teleport to the spot the person casted at from the spot he targeted, right? if LoS is working properly on that- than that would be true, yes?
The reason you can be hit while standing within a tower is due to the fact that area of effect spells are only concerned with whether the caster can see the tile or object they originally target. If that can be achieved, then the area of effect spell will hit anyone within two tiles of the target location or object, completely ignoring line of sight and the z axis of those victims. This creates a one way relationship in terms of targeting, where it is typically impossible to actually be at the targeted location, and in the cases where it is possible, teleportation is prevented due to the interaction with multiobjects.
ok so i should be able to harm the caster, were i to stand on the very same tile he/she is targeting in order to hit players standing in the center. but you can't target through walls, so how is the player targeting through a wall, same floor or floors above and having a success.
No, this wouldn't work for a number of reasons. First, you would have to stand on the same tile,
at the same z axis, which would place you under the house where you can't exist at. Second, you would also need to have a certain number of tiles in front of you without anything obstructing your view. Depending on the location, this wouldn't be possible to achieve in certain houses. Finally, this doesn't have anything to do with targeting through walls at all, which makes any comparison with shooting through walls a moot discussion.
Arsen wrote:i just can repeat my self. make it bannable to kill someone via los exploit.
i dont know why this never happend to me on real osi back in the days.
maybe it was because no one used razor or simply it didnt work.
all they do is run by and kill ppl inside a house within a second. whats the point in tolerating this?
iam all for era accuracy (when its 100% proven) but i think a large shard with experienced staff should put a ceiling on abusing something like this.
seriously
We won't be banning this type of behavior anytime soon.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:54 pm
by EVeee
MatronDeWinter wrote:People complaining doesn't mean that there is a problem. They complained about single-cut-bandaids, mount stamina, boat-item-visibility, reveal on stealth-snoop, and so on..
I didn't quote people complaining. I quoted visible instances of people getting killed in their houses due to this feature, which runs completely contrary to your statement that no one gets hurt by it. Next avoidance/fabrication?
MatronDeWinter wrote:You can go buy a house that is safe. So, it should remain.
EVeee wrote:Because there is a way around the problem, there is no problem.
MatronDeWinter wrote:I'm glad you agree. Mechanical Accuracy and whatnot..
Clearly I was making fun of your faulty logic. Mechanical accuracy may be a valid reason for keeping this thing going; your statement, however, is not.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:27 pm
by Loathed
ok so maybe i'm missing something here, but what tile is it that the character is targeting? How does he/she have LoS to that tile? especially if the only visible path to the tile is blocked by wall/foundation/a house floor?
I don't understand how a toon can cast meteor swarm on something in the center of a keep/tower yet not be able to do so on someone in a small house? How do they have LoS to this said tile they are targeting. If I'm standing at the very center area of a tower keep, he would have to target within how many tiles of me to hit me? (not considering the Z axis as distance) how would he have los to the tile he is targeting if i'm in a keep, and he's outside with no open door? I'm not understanding how it's possible.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:31 pm
by Kaivan
It's possible to target under certain foundation types because of how the actual foundation sits in relation to the ground itself. Because of that, a player can stand back a few tiles and is given a line to the ground under a house. Think of it like a triangle, with the hypotenuse coming to the object itself directly from the tile that's being targeted.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:44 pm
by Loathed
Kaivan wrote:It's possible to target under certain foundation types because of how the actual foundation sits in relation to the ground itself. Because of that, a player can stand back a few tiles and is given a line to the ground under a house. Think of it like a triangle, with the hypotenuse coming to the object itself directly from the tile that's being targeted.
well if that's the case then how come we can no longer teleport into keep walls from outside? wouldn't that fall under that ? also- i didn't realize meteor swarm was unlimited tiles pretaining to Z axis either. Now it makes more sense to me. But yes, wouldn't that mean one could essential throw a pot there as well?
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:16 pm
by GuardianKnight
Can we also undo the "fix" that made it so followers couldn't be rescued 1 wall away by gating out with the follow command?
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:27 pm
by Kaivan
Loathed wrote:Kaivan wrote:It's possible to target under certain foundation types because of how the actual foundation sits in relation to the ground itself. Because of that, a player can stand back a few tiles and is given a line to the ground under a house. Think of it like a triangle, with the hypotenuse coming to the object itself directly from the tile that's being targeted.
well if that's the case then how come we can no longer teleport into keep walls from outside? wouldn't that fall under that ? also- i didn't realize meteor swarm was unlimited tiles pretaining to Z axis either. Now it makes more sense to me. But yes, wouldn't that mean one could essential throw a pot there as well?
It's not possible to teleport under keeps or inside castle courtyards because of code that explicitly prevents any player from teleporting within 4 tiles of any multiobject (house or boat). As for potions, it's possible to throw a potion under a house, however purple potions have a maximum effect of 5 z above and below them. The foundation of houses float 6 z above the ground, preventing explosion potions from affecting anyone within a house.
GuardianKnight wrote:Can we also undo the "fix" that made it so followers couldn't be rescued 1 wall away by gating out with the follow command?
We need to determine what the correct distance for a pet to follow you through a moongate is, and whether they can follow you through a moongate despite having no line of sight.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:33 am
by Boondock_Saint
I thought this issue was era accurate... why beat a dead horse? It's like all the bring back event threads.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:36 am
by Arsen
Boondock_Saint wrote:I thought this issue was era accurate... why beat a dead horse? It's like all the bring back event threads.
scurvy shut it. its the only way you can kill ppl!
and it was never proven to be era. they just checked the demo and how osi works atm.... and iam pretty sure this would be 110% a bann if u abused this exploit on osi.
Re: How to fix the LoS Exploit easy
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:39 am
by lukasfrans
½ the player base have quit over it so, no need to ban the rest then there will be no one left