UO Second Age

Please Try and chill it.

As I stated above it doesn't really matter what one person or the other says or seems to remember on this issue at all, it'll be weighted much heavier that that.

This is an accuracy issue and we'll address it based on the evidence, I've got plenty to do in the meantime. It's been like this for 14 months, it's not an emergency today.

Sure Derrick, I've remained collected.

However, I am not sure what sort of evidence you are looking for.

I don't see why searching patch notes from t2a through UO:R shouldn't clear this up, unless it's all a big conspiracy by OSI against Kefka!

What I mean by "Chill It" is that these issues and questions about pet control and taming are not about personal conflicts between players, and I do not want to have an entire page in a discussion thread dedicated to he said she said infant-ry.

This is an accuracy question and will be treated like any other. I'm not convinced either way, in a tie the existing system is going to win for now.

Like many other things over the history of the shard, some revaltion will come along to setting this, until then let's not all get excited. Please.

After many weeks of trying to get the 99 "Professions: Tamer" on archived stratics to show up (over 10+ dates), I finally got frustrated. It must be the one page that never shows up.

Anyways, I decided to go forward a bit, the earliest one that works is June 13, 2000. The link is here:
http://web.archive.org/web/200006131856 ... atics.com/

If you scroll down a bit and take a look at the list of commands, you will notice that "all kill" simply isn't listed. Rather, it is listed as:

"(Name) kill",
"(Name) attack"

Attacks targeted being (doesn't work with 'All').

Some things to note. The 'All' prefix does not work all that well nor all that consistently. Sometimes 'all' the pets will obey and sometimes not. 'All follow me' works well enough if your Lore is high enough; same for 'All guard me'. 'All Attack' will cause the nearest to you to respond even if you yell the command (which I recommend). It works better if you explicitly name the tame you want to attack. On the other hand, 'All Release' will release the last tamed (or nearest); repeating the 'All Release' command will release the next most recently tamed and so on; but the 'All Attack' command doesn't that way.

Now I understand this is UO:R, very early at that, and simply looking through the patchnotes from T2A all throughout UO:R and not receiving any notification of a change on "All Kill" should be enough to put the nail in this coffin, however I like Kefka so much I will continue.

The June site doesn't offer as much information as the next dates do, or isn't as clear. Here is another quote from
December 2000. There is probably an earlier date that says it exactly in these words (the others hint it, it just isn't in as much detail) however I am far too tired to search every stratics date:

The "All" prefix does not work for orders that require a target, because only the pet closest to you will respond. It works better if you explicitly name the tame you want to issue a command for

This explains further how the "all" prefix to commands work. We know for sure that all kill functioned in some sort of way in T2A, this explains it.

It also explains why "all kill" isn't listed in this 99 patch note, among other targetable commands ("all fetch", "all attack" etc.)

You can now give all your pets orders by prefacing your order with "all." For example, saying, "all follow me" will make all your pets follow you. The list of commands this works with is:

* all follow me
* all guard me
* all come
* all stay
* all guard me
* all stop

You will notice that NO targetable commands are listed with "all" because they just don't work the same way.

I received a nice PM from hemperor the other day

[20:11] <hemperor> hey im making a coffin for tamers
[20:12] <hemperor> ill let you know when i slam the nails in it

Then I recieved a nice PM from hemperor tonight:

[01:23] <hemperor> hey buddy
[01:23] <hemperor> rather then remembering me as the best
[01:23] <hemperor> remember me as the guy that killed "ALL KILL"
[01:23] <hemperor> you no skill son of a bitch!

WOW, sounds SORT OF BIASED! what do you think? anyhow,

I then proceeded to ignore him about anything UO related, and told him about my awesome day!! Including the delicious subway grinder I had before going to the gym!!!!! (I figured, If he loves me so much, I might as well let him in on my person life, eh?)

01[01:25] <Kefka> so i drove home
01[01:25] <Kefka> long commute
[01:25] <hemperor> oh okay
01[01:25] <Kefka> about an hour
01[01:26] <Kefka> and a half
01[01:26] <Kefka> i was hungry
01[01:26] <Kefka> so i stopped at subway
[01:26] <hemperor> you fat fuck
01[01:26] <Kefka> i got a subway club
01[01:26] <Kefka> on whole wheat
01[01:26] <Kefka> turkey, ham, roast beef
01[01:26] <Kefka> pickles,

How mature is that? I'm trying to tell him about my wonderful day, and here he is calling me a Fat Fuck? What has humanity come to? Oh dear

Ok, right, anyhow. Derrick already stated that he's pretty much not going to listen to players opinions on this, and that all research is being done independently. However, Hemperor hates ACE and I sooooooooooooo much, he decided to IGNORE the admin, and WASTE all of his time doing this POINTLESS BIASED research.

Hemperor: Now I understand this is UO:R, very early at that

Do not include UOR information and attempt to play it off as T2A information. This is the main problem with the All Kill thing, NOTHING is clear at all. Talk about horrible research.

Stratics UOR notes: Some things to note. The 'All' prefix does not work all that well nor all that consistently. Sometimes 'all' the pets will obey and sometimes not.

DOES NOT WORK ALL THAT WELL!
The problem with the ALL command during the T2A era is that it was BUGGY, and DID NOT work as intended!!! this lead to All Kill being targetable, and yes, most of the time every pet would respond.

Lets recap your "research".

1) You're using UOR notes to justify T2A accuracy changes. It has been known that all kill didn't work during UOR, but did during T2A. These patch notes mean nothing!
2) You've clarified that the All command was buggy and didn't always work correctly (which is why All Kill worked during T2A).
3) You've proven that you are 100 percent biased when doing your research. Biased people tend to interpret things the way they want them to be viewed.
4) Your hatred and biased nature on this subject has discredited your horrible attempt at research. Even if you we not known to be biased, your post actually STRENGHTHENS the case that All Kill worked during T2A. It shows that the All command was buggy and didn't always work as intended, and your patch notes are UOR. Even if they weren't UOR, and were T2A, it has been documented that the All commands were buggy and didn't work correctly (giving rise to All Kill making all of your pets attack a single target).

Let the admin/GMs do their own independent, unbiased research. After talking to most of them, and to you, I guarantee that they are more intelligent, less biased, and more able to perform proper research when it comes to anything related to this game.

--Kefka

It is very surprising but I would have to say that Hemp is right on this one for a change. If you take a look at the first implementation in the '99 patch notes for the "all" command it only lists follow me, guard me, come, stay, and stop. The kill, attack, guard, fetch, and so on type of commands that produce a target isn't listed. It specifically says "The list of commands this works with is" in the patch note follow by the list.

What I recall with the "all kill" command when used was that only one pet would attack. He is probably right when he mentions that the closest pet would attack. I always thought it was more random personally, but I never really paid much attention to it. I was usually on the receiving end when this happened.

It would be nice if you took the time to understand most other issues like this one Hemp...

I always thought it was more random personally, but I never really paid much attention to it.

If you really didn't pay much attention to it, then you probably shouldn't be voicing your interpretation of how it worked during the T2A period.

*hands faust a crowbar so that he can pry his foot from his mouth*

The kill, attack, guard, fetch, and so on type of commands that produce a target isn't listed.

The reason that other commands which produce a target are not listed is because they would not work correctly. Telling ALL of your pets to fetch a SINGLE item is not feasible. How could every single pet pick up a single item and store it for you? Fetch wasn't listed because it just wouldn't work.

All guard me is listed twice. You could conclude that one of the "All Guard Me" commands was supposed to be All Kill, or All Guard (without the me). If you do state that it's all kill, you acknowledge that All Kill existed. If you claim it's All Guard (without the ME), you acknowledge that ALL commands producing targets existed.

You also have to acknowledge that because of this, the all documentation is not clear at all on the subject. It also DOCUMENTS that the ALL commands were buggy and did not work correctly.

Derrick has also extracted the ALL KILL command from the UO client, showing that it did exist.

So then why is it not in the UO Patch notes? It's because the UO patch notes, and stratics, are not complete/always accurate.

Please, do not begin a post by stating that you didn't pay attention to something back in the era, then try to comment on it as if you did pay attention to it.

I respect you Faust for other things that you have done for the server (although many others would disagree), however, this last post of yours does make you look a little silly on the research side of things.

You are holding onto a thread here kefka, and our conversations between us in IRC are strictly private!

Anyways, I already knew your response would be "WELL ALL GUARD ME IS LISTED TWICE, IT MUST ME ALL KILL?"

[01:32] <Kefka> you fail at posting hahahahahhahaha
[01:33] <hemperor> wheres your reply?
[01:33] <Kefka> you'll get it when i'm done with my movie in a few hours
[01:33] <hemperor> right
[01:33] <hemperor> i was going to say something funny,
[01:33] <hemperor> but i already know what your reply will be
[01:33] <hemperor> "BUT, BUT ALL GUARD ME IS LISTED TWICE"

It wouldn't be such a bad arguement if "all guard, all attack, all follow" weren't listed as well. Face it, stratics even explains it for you, "all" simply didn't not command ALL of your pets when using targetable commands.

All Kill does come from the extract of the UO Demo, but so does "all fetch, all attack, all follow, all guard" etc. It seems that you have ignored my clear explanation of this.

Your only possible defense here would be to go through patch notes and find a change saying "all now doesn't command all of your pets when using a targetable command, but only your nearest one" very early in UO:R. Which you won't find.

This isn't a personal war, as I have already stated, yet a discussion of accuracy. Faust tells the pvpers that RunUO has tainted their memories, this is the exact same situation.

It would be nice if you took the time to understand most other issues like this one Hemp...

Tamers were ruining pvp, they said it was accurate, I knew it wasn't. Rather than crying and crying like the rest of the shard I'm doing something about it! Huzzah! This is hit #3, dragons attacking reds, tamer targeting range, ALL KILL

woot

EDIT: Also kefka, you are claiming that they made typos/errors in Stratics AND the patch notes? This is covered in every single stratics date that you will get to show up. Come on now buddy, it is time to move on.
You are also saying that "all guard" isn't necessary because "all guard me" produces the same outcome...very wrong, you could command pets to guard targets in this era. You have already admitted yesterday that you were never a tamer in this era, please leave your assumptions out of this and if you really care THAT much, do your own research.

Faust wrote:He is probably right when he mentions that the closest pet would attack. I always thought it was more random personally, but I never really paid much attention to it. I was usually on the receiving end when this happened.

Well I'm sure more often than not, you will have multiple pets that are just as close, resulting in a random selection.

Sorry for the multiple posts
I have 4 horrible, lame excuses of defense to attend to.

1) You're using UOR notes to justify T2A accuracy changes. It has been known that all kill didn't work during UOR, but did during T2A. These patch notes mean nothing!

The first one is very early UO:R stratics, do you mean to tell me that they changed All Kill to only target one animal just for UO:R and they changed it back later on? Please find the patch notes for these.

2) You've clarified that the All command was buggy and didn't always work correctly (which is why All Kill worked during T2A).

This goes against everyone's memory (but yours, coincidentally) and I have quoted TWO stratics pages to clear things up for your simple mind. Again, only a magical patch note will save you here.

3) You've proven that you are 100 percent biased when doing your research. Biased people tend to interpret things the way they want them to be viewed.

I have simply presented the hard facts. Readers will make the obvious connections themselves.

4) Your hatred and biased nature on this subject has discredited your horrible attempt at research. Even if you we not known to be biased, your post actually STRENGHTHENS the case that All Kill worked during T2A. It shows that the All command was buggy and didn't always work as intended, and your patch notes are UOR. Even if they weren't UOR, and were T2A, it has been documented that the All commands were buggy and didn't work correctly (giving rise to All Kill making all of your pets attack a single target).

I think it is your hatred for a tamer balance that is really blinding you here. It doesn't matter what I hate, as someone stated in another thread (and Derrick agreed with) most of the hard research that happens here on the player side is due to hate, and a strong want for change!

I originally went upon this lead when KAIVAN (staff) told me about this over a month ago in vent. Are we all liars just out to get you?
Please reply with useful research or don't reply at all (irc logs don't count, lawl)

Time for me to jump in this ...


-----------------------------------------------------------
You can now give all your pets orders by prefacing your order with "all." For example, saying, "all follow me" will make all your pets follow you. The list of commands this works with is:

* all follow me
* all guard me
* all come
* all stay
* all guard me
* all stop

http://update.uo.com/design_22.html

-------------------------------------------------------------
Information 1
-------------------------------------------------------------
The all commands when used with a [target] cursor has been fixed. It no longer stores commands to be called up later. When you use an all command with [target] cursor, it will give you a system message that you can't use the all command with a target cursor and the last pet that was commanded will follow your command.

http://www.tamingarchive.com/updates/uor.php
--------------------------------------------------------------
Information 2
--------------------------------------------------------------

All you need ...

Very interesting find Jaster, however, I could not find a SINGLE mention of that in the actual publish note by OSI:
http://update.uo.com/design_196.html

The all commands when used with a [target] cursor has been fixed. It no longer stores commands to be called up later. When you use an all command with [target] cursor, it will give you a system message that you can't use the all command with a target cursor and the last pet that was commanded will follow your command.

This isn't clear whatsoever, it doesn't even follow stratic's description nor does it mean that "all kill" just functioned, just because...interesting find though.

You are right that it is not in the patch note; however, that doesn't mean things were not changed. If you read the small paragraph and break it down:

The all commands when used with a [target] cursor has been fixed.

... well, fixed makes it seem as if it was working improperly or a bug. Not all bug fixes are detailed into patch notes and never have been. Sometimes not even mentioned at all. The begins explaining what was wrong about it ...

It no longer stores commands to be called up later.

Then we move into detail about what it will do ...

When you use an all command with [target] cursor, it will give you a system message that you can't use the all command with a target cursor and the last pet that was commanded will follow your command.

This is based off of player testing after a publish, which is just as reliable as a patch note if well documented [which this link is].

On a side note, I found some nice information on uo.stratics.com [thanks kefka for the post on modern stratics.]

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?p=1114308

some very nice responses in there.

I have already posted that topic and you only have one single person in there that agrees with you guys, not sure why you link it.

It no longer stores commands to be called up later.

Can you please explain this to me? I do not follow. This is what I meant by what you posted being very unclear, it also doesn't go along with stratic's description of UO:R taming, so they just as easily could have gotten that one single page wrong (after all, it's just a patch update) on tamingarchive.

And if this was the case, imo this doesn't spell out that "all kill" should function the same way that the rest of the non-targetable commands do with "all". It's a very confusing line.

So not only is it not documented in patch notes, but this is the only place this part of information has shown up. It is a good find, continues this research for all of us, I encourage you to find more sources stating something of this sorts. If it is true (which I'm not saying it isn't, it just doesn't describe the behavior before and not properly about the after) you should be able to find more sources stating the same thing. I will look as well.

Kefka,

I said that I didn't pay much attention towards HOW the multiple animals attacked me in what type of order. However, I do remember only ONE of them attacking me when someone had a couple pets that would use it. They literally would spam "all kill" in this instance. I can comment how I remember it anyway that I want. That is like me telling you that you shouldn't make a comment since you never had a tamer during that time period... I'm not researching this topic. So I'm not quite sure why you would make a comment in regard to something like that. I only made my comment that Hemp's research is pretty solid from a logical stand point after reading it.

The excuse that the patch notes are incorrect is simply not a worthy one in my opinion. I have seen typos in the patch notes, but never a word screw up like that. With the amount of sources that backs up the "target" ability not working it's HIGHLY unlikely.

There are other commands besides kill too...

pet attack
pat follow
pet guard
pet fetch

If you suggest that they "messed up" and didn't put kill in the list it could have been easily the "guard" command forgetting to remove the "me" in this instance. That would seem more of a reasonble screw up... This arguement isn't a very logical one at all in my opinion.

What exactly do you mean Derrick has extracted the all kill command from the UO client? If you're talking about the UO Demo itself this is not true at all... The "all" command doesn't work on there for anything, which makes a lot of sense since it asn't added until mid '99.