Swing on the run (dexing)

[Roser]

There is a difference between moving non-stop for 2 seconds to refresh and moving followed with stopping for two seconds when refreshing a hally.

I don't know where you get this stopping for 2 seconds idea... Currently you only need to stop for .25 second's to begin the weapon cycle, which will then count down no matter how much moving/running you do.

Faust, when was the last time you actually tested or used a pvp template on UOSA? The comment I quoted you on seems like your thinking of the old combat system, not the one we have now.

As for the ping test, I did do one at way higher ping then the original that I linked... Please see this thread to view that video. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=29899&p=265369#p265369

[Light Shade]

Ronk, that satement would be incorrect.

I have still yet to witness a proper test conducted under the same conditions that were met back in the summer of '99.

- 56k modem with an average ping of 200+
- PC ran on the same hardware that existed back then, 166-500mhz prcoessor and 8-32mb of RAM.

Would be the proper test for these circumstances.

The test Rose conducted does not even come close to what the conditions were like back then as Kaivan has already clearly pointed out.

No offense Faust, but I think your entire argument is moot. We're saying Era-Accuracy, but what is Era Accuracy? Is it how it actually played out and worked or is it the code? They are two VERY different things because of technological improvements. You can stay a slave to the Era Accurate code argement and still be 99.9% Era-INaccurate because of this latency argument...and that is assuming that your argument is correct, which I do not believe it is.

Also, the truth is, we still don't KNOW if we've got it right...so why kill the Dexxer play class if you're not really certain? People point to the DEMO code and the patch notes, but at the end of they day you are all still 'interpreting' it...and are 'assuming' that the DEMO is accurate to the production server's code... which you will never be certain of.

I'm sorry, but when you boil it all down guys...you're basing your argument solely off of interpretation and assumption. That having been said, I ask again...

Why kill the Dexxer Play class if you can interpret it otherwise and assume otherwise?

As it is, I am completely dissatisfied with the UOSA Staff on this particular issue and think it is detrimentally harming the shard. I can see no hard evidence for things being the way they are and can use the staffs own arguments to support an opposite viewpoint.

Change this. It is bad for the shard and you have failed to even remotely convince me of the "accuracy" that it is intending to mimic.



-L/S

[Faust]

I don't know where you get this stopping for 2 seconds idea... Currently you only need to stop for .25 second's to begin the weapon cycle, which will then count down no matter how much moving/running you do.

Faust, when was the last time you actually tested or used a pvp template on UOSA? The comment I quoted you on seems like your thinking of the old combat system, not the one we have now.

As for the ping test, I did do one at way higher ping then the original that I linked... Please see this thread to view that video. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=29899&p=265369#p265369

I have viewed the video and it makes no difference what amount of ping you end up testing this with... until the same structure that would have existed back than is tested it makes no difference in reality.

Also, I am quite familiar with the way the swing mechanics work here. Again, there is a clear difference between walking around for two seconds, equipping without any sort of stopping involved, and swinging at your opponent compared to being forced to stop during the procedure. Running up and forcing your opponent to wrestle was a major counter tactic used back in the day. Without being forced to stop during the refresh process this tactic is damn near impossible to do on the move. This feature existed briefly and it was no where close to being 'era accurate' for this process.

I admit that there there are still some personal issues that I have for the swing mechanics based on my knowledge of the current code but it's better than anything that has existed here to date.

No offense Faust, but I think your entire argument is moot. We're saying Era-Accuracy, but what is Era Accuracy? Is it how it actually played out and worked or is it the code? They are two VERY different things because of technological improvements. You can stay a slave to the Era Accurate code argement and still be 99.9% Era-INaccurate because of this latency argument...and that is assuming that your argument is correct, which I do not believe it is.

How is having different code than what existed in '99 era accurate? That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. Sounds more like you are wanting era accuracy based on social engineering aka the same exact way the game existed for you. However, that has been established for years here now that it's impossible unless you have developed a time machine for us. The only true form of era accuracy is code replication and that is a fact.

Also, the truth is, we still don't KNOW if we've got it right...so why kill the Dexxer play class if you're not really certain? People point to the DEMO code and the patch notes, but at the end of they day you are all still 'interpreting' it...and are 'assuming' that the DEMO is accurate to the production server's code... which you will never be certain of.

The truth is that there is some pretty solid evidence backed up by the original code that falls into place with the current swing mechanics. The argument against the current system is based on anecdotal memories among a few players in this thread. Are we suppose to go on decade old memories over solid physical evidence that states otherwise?

False, we are 100% certain the demo code is exactly the same code that OSI used in the summer of '98. There is no dispute to this well known fact besides people that would also believe in big foot or some sort of government conspiracy theory such as 9-11 being a cover up by the U.S government.

As it is, I am completely dissatisfied with the UOSA Staff on this particular issue and think it is detrimentally harming the shard. I can see no hard evidence for things being the way they are and can use the staffs own arguments to support an opposite viewpoint.

Apparently, you are only seeing what you want to see and not what actually exists. I would highly suggest looking into this issue before making such comments. It's quite apparent that you are not familiar with the issue let alone the structure behind the code.

[emac]

The argument against the current system is based on anecdotal memories among a few players in this thread

I didn't check back through the thread but does anybody remember OSI being like our current system here on uosa? I sure don't.

[Paradox]

Faust all I see is someone trying to keep the server from growing... who hasn't been logged in on the server in how long?

Oh yea and the last combat patch removed the wrestle out which you mentioned. pay attention here faust cause as I see it you don't have a full understanding of what is seriously hindering gameplay. This is due to the fact that you don't play on this server really at all any more. Therefore why would you be trying to help the server grow, why would you try and better game play. You wouldn't. Until you have become a regular player as far as I am concerned your opinion doesn't count.


As it sits I am with Lightshade on this. I am seriously disappointed in the staff. To the point where this server to me has almost become pointless to play on anymore. You say you listen to your community?

You say this is ERA accurate? What about Rune books?? What about Kegs?


Why not just give the community what it wants in this regard. Fix the damn Dexers.. They are broke. All I see at this point is a bunch of tank mages everywhere. Wasn't UO about versatility and originality? This is a huge issue at hand. Dexers play a huge part in this game. (Well used to at least during this ERA) After all that is why my Mage during this era on UOSA was a Fencer... Because you could hit and run.

You have made compromises with the Rune Books you made compromises with Kegs... Make a compromise on this... And knock it off...

[Light Shade]

False, we are 100% certain the demo code is exactly the same code that OSI used in the summer of '98.

Congratulations! At best, you are 100% certain that for a 1-2 month period in the entire T2A Era, and roughly 18 months before the November 23rd cutoff date, that the code was exactly the same code that OSI used...

Forgive me if I chuckle as I type that...

Again, you're "interpreting" and "assuming" at best Faust.

It's quite apparent that you are not familiar with the issue let alone the structure behind the code.

You are quite wrong on both accounts Faust, but if you would like to attack my "assumed" knowledge of things, go right ahead. It is plain to see from your other statements in this thread that you are quite good at assuming things.

I'll ask it again: Why DESTROY a player class when you cannot be sure?

-L/S

[Blaise]

I'll ask it again: Why DESTROY a player class when you cannot be sure?

-L/S

Oh don't exaggerate. I love being made fun of for not using magic with my warrior. /sarcasm

[_FTW_]

I'm not sure who Faust is. But if he plays here obviously he hasn't seen how being a dexxer sucks. :-/

[Sandro]

Oh yea and the last combat patch removed the wrestle out which you mentioned

no it didnt

[Rhis]

I didn't check back through the thread but does anybody remember OSI being like our current system here on uosa? I sure don't.

This! I'd love to hear from anyone who actually plays that thinks dexxers were this gimped.

Edit: went back through the thread, and it doesn't seem like anyone remembered it being the way it currently is. Basically it's all based on this one mini-patch note than everyone who can remember knows was in response to breakages caused by the UO:R patch 4 hours earlier.

Oh, but dexxers with 100k worth of gear can almost kill tanks in a 10x10 box...

Why can't we have semi-viable dexxers here? Let's face it, they still won't really be competitive with the best played tanks without the dex based healing speed changes as well.

This whole attitude of "adhere to what the mechanics ~supposedly~ were" is really detrimental to the shard. I'm new, and I'm already pissed with the state of pvp. The aim of the shard would be better served by trying to evolve things in the spirit of t2a play.

Why is it that a single unclear mini-patch note that purportedly makes a major game-play change just hours after a huge content patch holds so much weight over the memories of so many people? We can't all be wrong about this! Dexxers ~were~ viable.

[Roser]

You can only disturb someones hally cycle after their wrestle timer has counted down, and before they equip a hally. If said person is to equip a hally on the exact tick the wrestle timer is ready, then it is impossible to be disturbed.

Try this by standing still next to a target and cycling your hally. If you have good timing, you will not be interrupted by a wrestle.

Running up and forcing your opponent to wrestle was a major counter tactic used back in the day. Without being forced to stop during the refresh process this tactic is damn near impossible to do on the move.

Considering the movement restriction takes place at the beginning of a cycle, and is the function that initiates the combat timer, there is no reason as to why this would effect the ability to steal someones hit. Keep in mind that UOSA does allow you to move while charging a hit.

Ill re-iterate, the movement restriction has nothing to do with being able to "run up and force an opponent to wrestle"

[iamreallysquall]

Oh yea and the last combat patch removed the wrestle out which you mentioned

no it didnt

^^^^^ lol paradox hardly even plays

[Faust]

Still love how some people use that excuse "oh you dont even play" bs to this very day even though I understand more to do with this shard than they can possibly grasp in game and the code used for the server.

Here is the sole fact that this issue will come down to. Get some evidence like what was produced to generate the code in the first place and until you do, drop it.

We are now finished until you finally realize moaning and griping does not equate to a change on this server like the rest that have come and gone due to that process.

Oh yea and the last combat patch removed the wrestle out which you mentioned

no it didnt

Try this by standing still next to a target and cycling your hally. If you have good timing, you will not be interrupted by a wrestle.

The person has to be rather bad and not spamming attack last than. I have conducted numerous tests to pin point precision with macros and programs to see if it's possible to get passed someone spamming attack last. Simple answer, it's not.

When someone is running around for two seconds refreshing you can't force them to wrestle unless they are super slow with a bad connection.

The pvp will come down to running around refreshing hally exchanges just like it did when it existed here briefly.

Again, if you want something to change with this get very famliiar with the original code, develop a logical model based on that code AND the patches that transpire in between that code and UOR, and than something may be considered. However, when you are just grasping at straws and throwing crap at the wall to see if it sticks nothing is going to happen.

I am not entirely satisfied with the current swing mechanics myself based on the knowledge and understanding that I have for the current code in place but it's the best that has been generated so far to mimic the original swing code and what transpired in patches after it.

I woud love to see what some of you develop and come up with for the swing mechanics using the proper way that era accuracy gets implemented here.

[Sandro]

Actually Faust, it is entirely possible for me to stand completely still and arm my halberd, or any weapon for that matter, at the precise time my swing is ready, and not wrestle/waste my swing, but rather get the swing off everytime.

If done correctly and my stamina doesnt take a big hit I can perfectly arm my weapon, not ever missing a swing without moving.

I can show this to you in-game if you'd like.

edit: This can be done with my opponent standing directly next to me, spamming or looping attack last.

[Faust]

I know it's possible manually but not when using a program to mimic those results is what I was saying as you well know after discussing it on IRC.

There is definiately user error when trying to do it this way but stopping is required unlike where this would not be the case if the movement restriction was removed. The dumbed down process would be a piece of cake even for someone that never played after being explained the process.