Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy

[Duke Jones]

Timing out a murder gump technically would curb some afk macroing. But it feels a bit too militant. And with that soultion, we still have automated gameplay with razor.

The fix doesn't seem big enough.

[Dagon]

-You have a macro that would change "normal" (no third-party macros) success rate of something from, lets say 70%.

Fail.

There's nothing you can do with a macro to make crafting/skill gain/whatever any more successful than you could do manually. The macro is simply automating the process of what you would do manually. I fully wish using a macro to create my blacksmith items would result in more exceptional pieces, but alas it does not.

Cutting bandaids is 100% successful by hand, or by macro.

Hiding by macro or by manual hotkey every 10 seconds results in the same success rate and skill gain.

Provoking animals in the stables by macro or by hand is still 100% effective success rate.

et cetera

The only thing a macro does is speed things up and automate it. But speed or automation was not your issue, everything you said was based on success rates. And speed != success.

[Duke Jones]

-You have a macro that would change "normal" (no third-party macros) success rate of something from, lets say 70%.

Fail.

There's nothing you can do with a macro to make crafting/skill gain/whatever any more successful than you could do manually.

Tell that to PvPers.

Now lets talk about timing and dedication:

Timing: A human cannot consistently perform a skill at the X.00 second mark for hours on end.
-Automating it, yields improved rate of skill gain/product over time. Someone not using razor has no chance of competing with that, thus forcing other players into the new elitist standard.

Dedication: Players in T2A who were more "well off" then other players were that way because they were more dedicated. Either by play time on the shard, by tactics/strategy, or being more enterprising in-game.

Currently, I've seen players GM and have a tower in 2 weeks. This is impossible to compete with if you're not macroing your skills. It had nothing to do with them being more dedicated or skillful. They sat AFK and macroed their skills.

[Zane]

I think people would be less opposed to eliminating Razor hotkeys then they would the macros. At least I would be... but again, I understand the problem with limiting Razor in any way.

[Dagon]

Timing and dedication has nothing to do with anything. Those are your feelings on things, and nothing more.

Your post was also about success rate, not timing /dedication. Maybe someone wouldn't sit there pressing a key every 10 seconds for hours on end, yet it is possible that they would. Also, that's beside the point. The success rate that you talked of would be the same even if you only sat there for 30 minutes pressing a button vs running the macro for 30 minutes. It's the same thing. Also, era accuracy dictates that someone could have stuck a quarter in the keyboard to macro for hours on end, I know I did it. Attended/unattended is not the issue here, it's your assertion of what was impossible that is the issue.

As for dedication, UO was never about fair and balanced playing. That's why one person is a PK and another is the one being PK'd. It's not balanced, someone has more advantage. If one person plays for 3 hours a day another plays for 8 hours a day there's no rule that says the person playing for 8 hours should have more "reward" in the end than the person who played for 3 hours. 8 hours of manually training a fisher won't result in as much reward as 3 hours of manually training a blacksmith. 1gp fishsteaks vs 90gp chain coifs has nothing to do with dedication, it's a fact of unfair and unbalanced gameplay. 8 hours of macroing a fisher would still be as unequal as 3 hours of macroing a blacksmith. So your whole premise of manual vs macro fails in it's entirety.

If you choose to have your play style a certain way then that's your choice, and if another chooses to have their style involve macroing and maximum efficiency for quickest gains then that's their choice also. Remember, UO is not balanced. If you can't GM and get a tower in 2 weeks because of the play style you choose to participate in then who's fault is that? Only yours. You choose to do things the way you want to do them so you have to live within the means of your style of play. That has nothing to do with Razor or the ability to macro skills. That's your personal decision on how to play the game and fulfills whatever it is you are trying to get out of playing the game. Not everyone has the same desire to play the game the same way that you do, and that's exactly why people do in fact play the game because you can do things in your own way.

A lot of people come here because they want to PVP and they want to get into the PVP action as soon as possible. How does their macroing up a tank mage or dexxer affect your ability to make money or do things how you want to do them? Oh yeah, it doesn't.

Further, the assertion that UO's internal macro system was designed in such a way to prevent macroing like Razor, well, prove it. Show me developer meeting minutes where the designers talked about too powerful macroing and that it's not intended to be like that. Just because something wasn't perceived does not mean that it was intended to be that way. In fact, if i I remember this correctly, didn't UO start off with basic macroing/hotkey capabilities.. and eventually it was EXPANDED with more powerful abilities and options. So the framework was there to say that if UO-T2A was still developed as it was 10 years ago it's reasonable to believe that by now there COULD be some Razor like features built into the game by default.

Anyways, I'm done with this. It's clear that you think everyone should play the game the exact same way that you do, and that's not how the game was designed. Otherwise it would be a single player game or an MMO without any ability to customize anything.

[Duke Jones]

Warning: Militant, irritated response (in red) ahead. My apologies in advance.

Your post was also about success rate, not timing /dedication.

I was talking about PVP (tell me that it hasnt degraded to Macro vs. Macro) and the timing/dedication post was an addendum to that. I would appreciate if you wouldn't misdirect what I said.

Maybe someone wouldn't sit there pressing a key every 10 seconds for hours on end, yet it is possible that they would. Also, that's beside the point. The success rate that you talked of would be the same even if you only sat there for 30 minutes pressing a button vs running the macro for 30 minutes. It's the same thing.

We're not talking about 30 min. we're talking about HOURS, maybe even days, and you know it. And that makes a big difference.

Also, era accuracy dictates that someone could have stuck a quarter in the keyboard to macro for hours on end, I know I did it. Attended/unattended is not the issue here, it's your assertion of what was impossible that is the issue.

As for dedication, UO was never about fair and balanced playing. That's why one person is a PK and another is the one being PK'd. It's not balanced, someone has more advantage. If one person plays for 3 hours a day another plays for 8 hours a day there's no rule that says the person playing for 8 hours should have more "reward" in the end than the person who played for 3 hours. 8 hours of manually training a fisher won't result in as much reward as 3 hours of manually training a blacksmith. 1gp fishsteaks vs 90gp chain coifs has nothing to do with dedication, it's a fact of unfair and unbalanced gameplay. 8 hours of macroing a fisher would still be as unequal as 3 hours of macroing a blacksmith. So your whole premise of manual vs macro fails in it's entirety.

No. You're talking about 2 completely different professions with two different systems of skill/profit development. Take the same players with the same profession. Make one afk macro for a week, and another one play legitimately while at the computer. The guy with the AFK macro will have such an advantage that it will become the standard. and THAT is the inherent flaw in Razor.

It's forcing the player community standardize automation of gameplay and those who dont have every action scripted to a key is, by comparison, going to be left behind weather it be PvP combat, skill gain, or gathering, or crafting.

If you choose to have your play style a certain way then that's your choice, and if another chooses to have their style involve macroing and maximum efficiency for quickest gains then that's their choice also. Remember, UO is not balanced. If you can't GM and get a tower in 2 weeks because of the play style you choose to participate in then who's fault is that? Only yours. You choose to do things the way you want to do them so you have to live within the means of your style of play.

That's very close-minded and a self-indulgent excuse and here's why: Having an advantage is fine. But doing it via a third party program, and then making it so that the people who don't abuse it to the level other people do, resulting in being less successful and more likely to fail is insulting to the original game's intent.

That has nothing to do with Razor or the ability to macro skills. That's your personal decision on how to play the game and fulfills whatever it is you are trying to get out of playing the game. Not everyone has the same desire to play the game the same way that you do, and that's exactly why people do in fact play the game because you can do things in your own way.

Not when it is detrimental to gameplay and the player community as a whole. If people who aren't playing their character are (comparitively) more successful than people who are actually at the computer legitmatly playing, what's the point? There's something obviously wrong.

A lot of people come here because they want to PVP and they want to get into the PVP action as soon as possible. How does their macroing up a tank mage or dexxer affect your ability to make money or do things how you want to do them? Oh yeah, it doesn't.

Wrong. You're thinking is "Oh, I'm just here for PvP, so I'm exempt from working for my skill gain."
Why don't we just have an "I pvp" checkbox on character creation and allow PVPers 700 skill points to distribute where they want? Because obviously they won't be at their computer playing until they are GM template.

And the ability to macro up to GM DOES affect other players. As I stated earlier, ask a GM bowcrafter or smith how well they do selling their weapons.

Further, the assertion that UO's internal macro system was designed in such a way to prevent macroing like Razor, well, prove it. Show me developer meeting minutes where the designers talked about too powerful macroing and that it's not intended to be like that. Just because something wasn't perceived does not mean that it was intended to be that way. In fact, if i I remember this correctly, didn't UO start off with basic macroing/hotkey capabilities.. and eventually it was EXPANDED with more powerful abilities and options. So the framework was there to say that if UO-T2A was still developed as it was 10 years ago it's reasonable to believe that by now there COULD be some Razor like features built into the game by default.

The point is era accuracy, T2A's macro system should be all we should have. And the overall game would be better that way.

All these advanced razor scripts. How much is too much? Where do we draw the line in how much we automate gameplay? If you were able to automate EVERYTHING, and you'd only have to log in to check you're bank balance, would you?

Congratulations, you're a rich, glorified NPC. All it cost you was the human element from this multiplayer game.

Anyways, I'm done with this. It's clear that you think everyone should play the game the exact same way that you do, and that's not how the game was designed.

I think everyone should play within the intent of UO T2A. Not all this "I have a razor script for everything, I have the treehack map, I got to 7x GM in under a month, I'm multiclienting with a ghost so there's no risk, I have 15 castles" Nonesense.

Otherwise it would be a single player game or an MMO without any ability to customize anything.

Tell that to all the players who have characters that don't interact with the other players in this multiplayer game until they are GM.

[Dagon]

"But doing it via a third party program, and then making it so that the people who don't abuse it to the level other people do, resulting in being less successful and more likely to fail is insulting to the original game's intent."

UOAssist, a third party program, authorized by OSI for use, made it so people using it had an advantage over those who did not. You fail.
EZMacros could be used to macro any crafting skills or skill gains. Yeah it was not as efficient as razor is today, but it was used successfully to macro smithing and anything else. You fail.
When you are sailing your boat, do you use the number pad for movement? That's a macro, you fail anti-macro boy.

Everything you say about the game's "intent" is YOUR PERCEPTION of how the game "should" be. Stop trying to be god and make everyone follow your will.
"Not when it is detrimental to gameplay and the player community as a whole."
Again, what you consider a detriment is your perception, and we don't live by your standards.

If you are unhappy with the way things are you are free to create your own server where you and sirrayiv can play together without macros. Some newb rage quit because he got pkd and lost his armor, sounds like you have a bigger chip on your shoulder to rage quit over.

[Ulor]

Not sure that I have ever read one of your posts that I have disagreed with....it sure is nice to see some players on this server who can see the big picture. After watching the commercial version of UO fall apart because of UOAssist, EasyUO, etc...I am all for restricting Razor!!!

Not sure if you played through T2A in-era, but back then it wasn't macroing that began the demise of UO - it was their decision to build Trammel, and rampant duping that tanked the economy. Macroing had nothing to do with it.

[Jester]

UOAssist, a third party program, authorized by OSI for use, made it so people using it had an advantage over those who did not. You fail.

I don't remember the exact time, but I'm pretty sure UOAssist wasn't approved until after UO:R. And I don't really remember because it's been such a long time, but I'm pretty sure UOA couldn't do the things Razor can neither. And all the other programs listed are ones which aren't allowed, aren't(weren't) they ?

I agree with what Duke Jones says, it would be more fun without all the super macros. And I seriously don't think Duke Jones is going to

"rage quit because he got pkd and lost his armor, sounds like you have a bigger chip on your shoulder to rage quit over.

neither

If a person can't see a problem with making 50-60% of everything he or she does happen by an auto-pilot I think (<-- Opinion I know) it's a sad day for gaming in general.

[Kraarug]

UOAssist, a third party program, authorized by OSI for use, made it so people using it had an advantage over those who did not. You fail.

I don't remember the exact time, but I'm pretty sure UOAssist wasn't approved until after UO:R. And I don't really remember because it's been such a long time, but I'm pretty sure UOA couldn't do the things Razor can neither. And all the other programs listed are ones which aren't allowed, aren't(weren't) they ?

I agree with what Duke Jones says, it would be more fun without all the super macros. And I seriously don't think Duke Jones is going to

"rage quit because he got pkd and lost his armor, sounds like you have a bigger chip on your shoulder to rage quit over.

neither

If a person can't see a problem with making 50-60% of everything he or she does happen by an auto-pilot I think (<-- Opinion I know) it's a sad day for gaming in general.

UOA was approved for OSI shards on 6.7.99

[Duke Jones]

I have no intent to rage quit.

I'm simply fighting for what I believe in. And the boards is the approved means for such a fight. If you disagree and fight me to keep gameplay automated, that's your prerogative.

I just think we need to step back, take a long look at what's going on, and not worry about "how this hurt me". We should have the foresight to know what the big picture is and think about it and discuss this.

How much automation is too much? Where do we draw the line?
Should we allow the full automation of gameplay?
Should we RESTRICT macros to very simple ones?
Should we disable looping?
Should we ban it altogether?

[sirrayiv]

Not sure that I have ever read one of your posts that I have disagreed with....it sure is nice to see some players on this server who can see the big picture. After watching the commercial version of UO fall apart because of UOAssist, EasyUO, etc...I am all for restricting Razor!!!

Not sure if you played through T2A in-era, but back then it wasn't macroing that began the demise of UO - it was their decision to build Trammel, and rampant duping that tanked the economy. Macroing had nothing to do with it.

I have been playing UO since 98, and creating Trammel allowed for people to stand around and Macro unattended without anyone being able to harm the person, which in turn had alot to do with the economy tanking. The GM's also didn't police the afk macroers properly, because OSI was more concerned about making money off of the cheaters, than they were about banning the offending players. I used to report people all the time, only to see them doing the exact same thing only hours later. This is why I am all for a player Justice solution of removing murder gumps after 10 minutes.

[Mikel123]

creating Trammel allowed for people to stand around and Macro unattended without anyone being able to harm the person, which in turn had alot to do with the economy tanking

Look...

1) creating Trammel had a lot of other negative effects. Somewhere around 397th on the list was allowing people to stand around and macro unattended.
2) the economy didn't "tank" in 2000 or 2001. The game is still around. Zimbabwe's economy legitimately tanked. To the point of over a billion % inflation. Same with Germany in the early 20th century. Same with Russia. Inflation does not equal "tanking".
3) macroing unattended had so little to do with any inflation it's laughable. Duping gold undetected and selling advanced character tokens probably had a far bigger impact.

[Zorce]

I would rather see a murder gump timer instead of losing razor all together. Zippy built razor for convenience. The shard could disable things in it but it will not have the effect some are hoping for. It may even drive some players away. I would rather not see that. It just makes things easier. This era was great but it had its issues like shitty crafting gumps and such. Using razor to ease some gameplay issues is not going to ruin the shard.

[Longfellow]

I'd also like to see serious limitations to Razor, especially in the game play aspects (ridiculous hotkey macros). I agree with Duke Jones contributions on this thread.


I just think we need to step back, take a long look at what's going on, and not worry about "how this hurt me". We should have the foresight to know what the big picture is and think about it and discuss this.

How much automation is too much? Where do we draw the line?
Should we allow the full automation of gameplay?
Should we RESTRICT macros to very simple ones?
Should we disable looping?
Should we ban it altogether?[/quote]