Second Age: An Entirely Different Game - A Dead Horse Kicked

[BlackFoot]

get used to it benny

probably one of the best tools available on this forum is the 'friend/foe' list
learn to use it and your forum experience will be much more productive

[dexter4321]

get used to it benny

probably one of the best tools available on this forum is the 'friend/foe' list
learn to use it and your forum experience will be much more productive

Get the hell off my case troll.

[benny-]

Thanks for the tip blackfoot, I had never noticed that feature before. But instead, Ill simply ask that those who wish to participate in this discussion simply stay on topic. What we're discussing here are the differences between the gameplay of the era and the current shard. Please redirect any talk of individuals or guilds to the trash talk portion of the forums, such talk is pointless here in this forum.

This discussion was never about being able to find quality pvp out in the field. In fact, what I was getting at was the overall lack of activity out in the game world, particularly by those who would normally be out in the game, crawling through dungeons, occupying the various outdoor spawns, for the sake of advancement. This does of course affect field pvp, as more players out in the game world gives reds more targets to go after...more reds out hunting various pvmers gives a greater need for anti's to go out and hunt down the reds...etc.

This is much more true to the era, in that the game was played by all types of players trying to advance out in the world, which was what created such competition and challenge.

Actually, a couple of Josh's comments help to further my argument here. This feature of Secondage, giving players the option to simply "jump in and play" isn't at all what the era was about. Reducing activity in the game world, eliminating the challenge and difficulty required to have an advanced character all in order to appeal to pvpers who dont want to "waste time" with character advancement goes against the entire concept of the era. To quote...

Since inception, the goal, vision and rationale of even creating this shard has been very simple but unique:

* We aim to replicate the T2A era as best we can and within technical limitations as a whole.
* We do not intend to ever change any aspect of normal gameplay to particularly favor any playstyle or to protect or further expose any players to the in-game risk that was a large part of this era.
* We will especially not pull aspects of other eras into this one, even with an overwhelming demand of players.

We believe that "proper" gameplay can only be achieved by taking the era as a whole and accept it for what it was. Tampering with the era in hope of achieving balance is not something that we will do, nor do we believe is achievable across all playstyles. Diversity of players and playstyles is a necessity of a healthy shard. Every type of play depends on another, and this is why UO is absolutely the greatest MMORPG ever crafted.

So far, in this entire thread, I have yet to see a valid argument as to why afk macroing exists here beyond "its a 10 year old game" which is hardly an argument at all, as the entire focus of this shard is how to make the game more like how it was 10 years ago. The very fact that so many users have joined this shard over the years speaks well to the fact that people want that gameplay from so long ago, something that wont be achieved while we have such inaccurate features on this shard.

[Mikel123]

So far, in this entire thread, I have yet to see a valid argument as to why afk macroing exists here beyond "its a 10 year old game" which is hardly an argument at all, as the entire focus of this shard is how to make the game more like how it was 10 years ago. The very fact that so many users have joined this shard over the years speaks well to the fact that people want that gameplay from so long ago, something that wont be achieved while we have such inaccurate features on this shard.

Ask someone who macroed in 1999 how often they got caught by a GM. Enforcement was virtually non-existent.

I still remember putting a hammer on my Alt key for so long I broke the key. Never got caught macroing in 1999.

So I guess if you wanted to get perfectly accurate, you could have some 24 year old getting paid $7/hour to answer dumbass questions from 3000 people, and every once in a while jail someone for cursing or macroing... but what we have here is probably close enough.

[dexter4321]

I hear what you are saying but there isn't as many people here as there was on OSI in order for that to work properly. If it was indeed t2a accurate down to every little detail like you say, people would not stay here. They would easily goto hybrid, defiance, or any other well known free shard.

[Eulogy]

Macroing will never become illegal.

As for the person who said skills were easier on OSI, LOL!!

So yeah, if you people want to crusade for the good cause, you might want to pick something that might actually happen.

[benny-]

Ask someone who macroed in 1999 how often they got caught by a GM. Enforcement was virtually non-existent.

I still remember putting a hammer on my Alt key for so long I broke the key. Never got caught macroing in 1999.

So I guess if you wanted to get perfectly accurate, you could have some 24 year old getting paid $7/hour to answer dumbass questions from 3000 people, and every once in a while jail someone for cursing or macroing... but what we have here is probably close enough.

Saying that there was a small percentage of the playerbase who got away with macroing illegally during the era is not nearly the same as readily accepting it, endorsing it and encouraging the entire playerbase to use it. Some of the staff here have made this same argument: "macroing existed in T2A so it exists here". By that same logic we should endorse and provide programs to speed hack or should be allowed to use any unapproved third party program we wish because there were in fact users during the era who did the same.

During the era, the staff clearly recognized unattended macroing as cheating. They made rules against it and did what they could to enforce them. Yes, out of the thousands and thousands of users it was impossible to eliminate the problem entirely. Yes, if macroing were made illegal here there would still be users getting away with it.

But if you want to talk about accuracy or try to make some argument suggesting that this behavior is in fact accurate, the staff here need to first recognize that this behavior is detrimental to the overall game and must take the same stance, policies and actions to combat it, just as the staff did then. Saying that you could stick a hammer on a lasttarget to perform a limited action illegally is not at all the same as having the staff tell people they can macro with all the level of intricacy they want, publicly, and even encourage players to do so to where it practically becomes a requirement just to play on this server.

Macroing will never become illegal.

As for the person who said skills were easier on OSI, LOL!!

So yeah, if you people want to crusade for the good cause, you might want to pick something that might actually happen.

I realize just how big of an issue this is here. The fact that nearly 100% of the playerbase has been using macroing for so long shows that this is not a trivial detail, one that could be readily changed without any opposition. However I think it is fruitless to make changes and suggestions over such smaller details when such major issues that have had a much larger impact on the shard still exist.

I have always respected the staff here because they are open to the idea of making large changes to the shard if a valid argument can be made for the sake of accuracy.

When I first came to SecondAge a while back, there were no longterm murder counts. As a result, nearly all pks were in fact blues. I made an argument against this pointing out that it had changed the gameplay very much from the red vs blue that we all knew from the era and that there were longtterm murder counts during part of the era (meaning either system could've been seen as accurate). There was opposition to this as there will be to any changes that greatly affect gameplay. But even me being a brand new player, the staff realized how this had changed the gameplay so much from the era and did implement my suggestion.

I've never lost faith that the staff here will at the very least have an open ear to discussions and will at least consider changes when it comes to restoring accuracy.

[dexter4321]

What you are suggesting would destroy uosa.

[nickhimself]

Being able to macro isn't anything new. I can tell you right now that I macroed up magery, hiding, and several other skills before T2A came out using EZ-Macro.

This was way before UOA came out. I'd put a stapler on my keyboard to macro hiding while I was in school. Granted, 9 times out of 10 i'd come home to maybe 2 or 3 points gained and see CONNECTION LOST (thanks dial-up) but I was still macroing unattended. I didn't know of ANYONE who was jailed or banned from macroing.

I knew several people who were exploiting hardcore, none of them got banned. I'm talking money and item dupes, speedhacks, etc. These guys were all out cheating. Nothing ever happened to them.

I believe that macroing will continue in games until people stop playing them. There's no reason to fight it. You really can't do much to stop it. Unless an anti-cheat program was installed with UOSA that was required to run, like punkbuster, there's no guaranteed way to stop people from doing these things you dislike.

If Razor is removed from the list of acceptable programs to use, guess what? My keyboard and mouse have enough macro capabilities to more than make up for it WITHOUT using a 3rd party program. I know I'm not the only person here with a keyboard similar to this: http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keybo ... 6&cl=us,en (I'm using an older G15 with more macro keys on the left). Hell, my mouse has software that runs with it capable of macro input.


If you don't like this server and how it's run, leave.

[benny-]

Being able to macro isn't anything new. I can tell you right now that I macroed up magery, hiding, and several other skills before T2A came out using EZ-Macro.

I knew several people who were exploiting hardcore, none of them got banned. I'm talking money and item dupes, speedhacks, etc. These guys were all out cheating. Nothing ever happened to them.

Then, by your own logic, we should endorse and support programs that allow gold duping and speedhacking, simply because people got away with using them just like they did with macroing...

If you don't like this server and how it's run, leave.

So by holding the server to it's own expectations. By calling for an accurate stance on macroing...by expecting the server to stay true to it's own philosophy of accuracy before all else...I should leave the server...genius.

[Biohazard]

Please, give me a valid argument for why macroing is fine, why it goes along with the accuracy that this community so strives for, Ive yet to hear one.


[/rant]

Dude, we don't follow policies here... It's all about mechanics. Pack up and go home.

[nickhimself]

I never said that we should endorse programs that allow players to dupe or hack. Obviously, those are programs nearly every player would say SHOULD be illegal. Macroing isn't a big deal.

You're getting so caught up in trying to police the game that you're forgetting that it's still possible to have fun.

Seriously, if you don't like it you can leave. No one is forcing you to play on this server. No one is asking you to complain about things that happen in the game with lord of the ring length responses.

[Hemperor]

I never said that we should endorse programs that allow players to dupe or hack. Obviously, those are programs nearly every player would say SHOULD be illegal. Macroing isn't a big deal.

You're getting so caught up in trying to police the game that you're forgetting that it's still possible to have fun.

Seriously, if you don't like it you can leave. No one is forcing you to play on this server. No one is asking you to complain about things that happen in the game with lord of the ring length responses.

The beauty of this shard is that you can discuss (or complain, however you choose to see it) to further the shard, and it's encouraged!....although this is certainly a dead horse.

[benny-]

I never said that we should endorse programs that allow players to dupe or hack. Obviously, those are programs nearly every player would say SHOULD be illegal. Macroing isn't a big deal.

You're getting so caught up in trying to police the game that you're forgetting that it's still possible to have fun.

Seriously, if you don't like it you can leave. No one is forcing you to play on this server. No one is asking you to complain about things that happen in the game with lord of the ring length responses.

I was pointing out the error in your argument, you mentioned how you did something illegal and why it should then be legal here, then followed up by listing other illegal actions that people got away with....thus disputing your own point.

As for the length of my responses...I think I responded to your paragraphs with but a couple sentences, heh. But yea, I do write novels with my responses at times...I'm sorry if it makes it difficult to follow the discussion amidst my ramblings. However I feel with suggestions of such large proportions, there needs to be a better length of discussion than "If you don't like it leave!"

[Mantis Atlantis]

Granted, 9 times out of 10 i'd come home to maybe 2 or 3 points gained and see CONNECTION LOST (thanks dial-up)

Ahh, this brings back memories. I had forgotten just how many "Connection Lost" messages I would see on a daily basis. You just don't see that nowadays. Free shards (and Internet access in general) are so stable and reliable.

This anecdote tells me: During the T2A era, few people had reliable, always-on Internet access. Unattended macroing wasn't as effective then because players just couldn't keep connected long enough to make it worthwhile. Conversely, the success of unattended macroing today owes a lot to affordable, ubiquitous high-speed Internet access.

The experience of a game has many moving parts, some of which are environmental factors that are not influenced by the game itself in any way, but which play a huge role in how it is perceived. For a shard designed to emulate an era, the scope of that emulation has to be defined. Right now, the scope includes the game code, but not OSI's policies. Unless anti-macro code is discovered to have been in effect during the T2A era that is not present on this shard, then I'm afraid this horse may lie dead forever.

A UOSA clone which does emulate OSI policies (including an anti-macro code, pun intended) would be an interesting experiment, but I don't see that happening, either. All in all, UOSA is good enough for most of us.