Debuff Disrupts

[EddieVanHalen]

honestly it doesnt matter what changes, people will always find a way to exploit some kind of something to win at pvp...its always gonna be that way

[bOmb]

Aye. This is why I don't want to make further changes unless we can close the book on this question forever. We've got 250+ real people that play daily on UOSA and are accustomed to how things work now. Taking the chance on a change on a hunch is something that happened once here I don't want to repeat that mistake. Often incorrect changes result in discovery of contradictory evidence shortly after implementation, causing utter chaos.

If in the beginning you had made it where debuffs always disrupted, I'm sure there would be people saying that it wasn't true to the original and to change it. They would be in the exact same situation we are in, fighting an uphill battle as there is currently no hard evidence to conclude debuffs DIDN'T disrupt. I've spent quite a bit of time searching in various places for anything related to either side's argument, and I've barely found anything besides what veterans "remember." If I found something conclusively proving us right or wrong, I'd come out with it.

I understand what you are saying about not wanting to rock the boat, but it's still disappointing. I'm fairly confident that people would be surprised by increased level of depth and quality of PvP (particularly in duels) and would adjust. Honestly, I think this change would really only affect upper tier PvP, since many players wouldn't put in the effort to maximizing the potential. Lower tier PvP, field fights, and everyone else would likely continue on business as usual for the most part.

Thank you for at least considering the change.

I think your wrong about who this would affect. Using debuff disrupts gives PKs a huge advantage over all

PvM chars without wrestling. Now, you have a fair chance to get away from a pk by recalling, with

this debuff disrupt, it would affect EVERY char on the shard without wrestling out of guards. Spamming or

loading a weaken only to use to disrupt a recall is how most people on other shards pk. This makes it

so that without wrestling, weaken could be the only spell casted while equiping weapons. Top tier PvPrs

are def. not the only ones affected, in fact the whole shard is affected IMO. Also, I think it was the GMs

who discovered the patch notes reguarding damage and disrupts, not the players.

[WoozyRargar]

I think your wrong about who this would affect. Using debuff disrupts gives PKs a huge advantage over all

PvM chars without wrestling. Now, you have a fair chance to get away from a pk by recalling, with

this debuff disrupt, it would affect EVERY char on the shard without wrestling out of guards. Spamming or

loading a weaken only to use to disrupt a recall is how most people on other shards pk. This makes it

so that without wrestling, weaken could be the only spell casted while equiping weapons.

First, wrestling has nothing to do with this as the change we are proposing (and believe is OSI T2A accurate) is for debuffs to always disrupt. This is not dependent on the defender's wrestling skill.

Now, considering what you're saying about giving a big advantage to PKs: I actually don't think it matters much at all. If someone is out PvMing or mining or whatever and a single PK comes and attacks him, then I submit that the PK is going to have a hard time killing him by spamming him with debuffs. The lone PK will eventually have to stop spamming debuffs and actually start casting damaging spells, giving the person time to Recall. Now, if instead a group of PKs come and attacks that same person, being able to Recall away is still very difficult for him to do due to being hit by a number of spells in quick succession.

Either way, I doubt people would have more or less trouble with PKs after they got used to the change and adapted to be more prepared for quick disrupts.

[WoozyRargar]

By the way, for anyone who would like to try find more concrete information, or even just old UO T2A information, I'd recommend using Google's 2001 Search (http://www.google.com/search2001.html). Basically, you can search their year 2001 databases and find content that wouldn't be listed by today's Google searches. Once you find a link you want to go to, make sure to click on the View old version on the Internet Archive link below that actual link. Not everything is archived, but at least it's something else to search besides looking through old OSI patch notes and UOSS information.

I've searched quite a bit and haven't found much related to this topic of discussion, unfortunately. Maybe someone will have more luck than me.

[alatar]

I think one of the reasons why a few people don’t remember debuffs being used for consistent disruption is because harm was used in their place by many people. I strongly believe harm was a reliable disrupting spell during the era, not a crapshoot like it is here. The use of the harm spell was one of the first PvP lessons during the era; here, a large majority of the top PvPers do not use it because it fails so often.

I believe magic arrow also disrupted, but was not as widely used due to the damage delay. When used as an opener, it could potentially disrupt your next spell if it reflected off your target.

Needless to say, I am very skeptical of the way disrupts are implemented here with the magery/damage-based chance to disrupt.

“Can debuffs interrupt a spell casting sequence if cast on a person on which that debuff has already been applied?”
Yes, consistently, with a “fizzle” animation as described by Faust.

“Do debuffs interrupt if they are resisted?”
This question surprised me, because throughout my entire UO experience, disrupts being resistable wasn’t even a question or issue of contention; it just didn’t happen.

Please also let it be known that I am not motivated because I think I would gain some sort of competitive advantage if these changes were implemented. On the contrary, my guild and I have adapted to the odd spell and weapon mechanics here (don’t get me started on the other things) and consistently win tournaments and events.

Disrupts here are simply not accurate, but more importantly, dueling is just not very fun. On one hand, it would be nice to not reduce PvP to disrupts and weapon hits, but on the other, dueling now is incredibly myopic and dilutes much of the “player skill” factor. The way most duels go now with the current mechanics is: prep ebolt/fs/explo, katana, hally, release spell, lightning spam, hally. This is because you can’t rely on anything besides lightning for consistent disruption, and even that can be tricky depending on if the person knows how to fast cast.

I agree with Arcanus. Back during T2A OSI there were a lot more reliable spells that would disrupt. Harm was very, if not the most popular disrupt spell used when I played. I have always remembered disrupts being infinite, because I remember if you locked your magery at 99.9 then someone couldn't re-debuff because you were still negativly affected by -1. (100 magery = +10 / 99.9 = +9)

I don't have any evidence on any of this except my memory. I honestly could care less what decision is made. The only reason I remember this so well is because I often used this tactic to disrupt and then follow up with gheal.

[Kharza]

I don't have any evidence on any of this except my memory. I honestly could care less what decision is made. The only reason I remember this so well is because I often used this tactic to disrupt and then follow up with gheal.

I have the same memories. Harm was a staple in PvP and especially large scale guild combat. I used to have a harm last target on a macro to do interrupts.. I very vividly remember it in the large scale guild combat when people would drop EV's and blades into a large battle.. always trying to interrupt that and the gheals they tried to get off. I don't remember it so much as trying to prevent offensive spells and interrupting that (although I'm sure it was there). I always remember as trying to interrupt gheals before they went off to put the person really on the defensive.

Khar

[bOmb]

First, wrestling has nothing to do with this as the change we are proposing (and believe is OSI T2A accurate) is for debuffs to always disrupt. This is not dependent on the defender's wrestling skill.

Now, considering what you're saying about giving a big advantage to PKs: I actually don't think it matters much at all. If someone is out PvMing or mining or whatever and a single PK comes and attacks him, then I submit that the PK is going to have a hard time killing him by spamming him with debuffs. The lone PK will eventually have to stop spamming debuffs and actually start casting damaging spells, giving the person time to Recall. Now, if instead a group of PKs come and attacks that same person, being able to Recall away is still very difficult for him to do due to being hit by a number of spells in quick succession.

Either way, I doubt people would have more or less trouble with PKs after they got used to the change and adapted to be more prepared for quick disrupts.

I know wrestling has nothing do with what your saying, it was used in my example

of how it would affect other people. Debuff spams are not possible to elude in any way. I said the non

wrestling example to prove your point wrong. The lone PK will NOT have to stop spamming debuffs or

such if the target doesnt have wrestling, which many pvm'ers dont. You see what Im saying?

Either way, I doubt people would have more or less trouble with PKs after they got used to the change and adapted to be more prepared for quick disrupts.

You might be right. I'm just against debuffs if you cant already tell. I played with them here and didnt mind,

but I enjoy what I feel is more authentic to the era. I'm here either way.

[platy]

http://www.uo.com/downloads/Catpvpsf1hr.rm
http://www.uo.com/downloads/Catpvpfinalshr.rm
PROOF that debuff spams weren't used in UO:R OSI shards.. those r the best pvper's from catskills at the time in combat..
I too played Catskills crabjuice.. and as I remember your name I don't ever remember seeing you unfortunately.. I was Elminster in !K! and I definately remember nobody on OSI ever spammed debuffs.. this video proves people didn't even use this tactics a year later (and we all know UO:R style pvp is all about disrupts)

I too feel Arcanus hit it the closest.. certain spells were usually more guarunteed.. but tbh I get 12% harm damage here and don't see any problems with it.

Also I'm with Siv 100%.. i've been through soo many PVP changes here it's turning the best shard into something else..

Derrick you need to stop trying to please all the new players here, you built an extremely accurate and fun shard and there is nothing wrong with the PVP system.. There will ALWAYS be those who "remember" something different.. You've got experienced/veteran Devs and players.. trust in them..

[WoozyRargar]

http://www.uo.com/downloads/Catpvpsf1hr.rm
http://www.uo.com/downloads/Catpvpfinalshr.rm
PROOF that debuff spams weren't used in UO:R OSI shards.. those r the best pvper's from catskills at the time in combat..
I too played Catskills crabjuice.. and as I remember your name I don't ever remember seeing you unfortunately.. I was Elminster in !K! and I definately remember nobody on OSI ever spammed debuffs.. this video proves people didn't even use this tactics a year later (and we all know UO:R style pvp is all about disrupts)

I too feel Arcanus hit it the closest.. certain spells were usually more guarunteed.. but tbh I get 12% harm damage here and don't see any problems with it.

Also I'm with Siv 100%.. i've been through soo many PVP changes here it's turning the best shard into something else..

Derrick you need to stop trying to please all the new players here, you built an extremely accurate and fun shard and there is nothing wrong with the PVP system.. There will ALWAYS be those who "remember" something different.. You've got experienced/veteran Devs and players.. trust in them..

I don't think those movies really conclusively prove anything for reasons I've already stated in a reply to "kill drizitz" on the first page. I would still like to see them, however. Is there another format you can upload them in? I hate RealPlayer with a passion

Do you remember Sean Barry? That was my name on Catskills. I seem to vaguely remember yours...

Also, there are experienced/veteran players on both side of the isle saying they "remember" it being a certain way.

[ClowN]

leave the current system for the sake of accuracy. debuff spamming is annoying and definatly not era accurate.

[platy]

i couldnt find away around real player or w/e they use sry
i'm not saying you guys don't know what your talking about in any regards, but i spent alot of time pvping and holding weaken wasn't something i remember doing..
i remember curse was bigger than the smaller spells, and IPY was only used to remove reflect. most of my pvping wasn't 1v1 however it was guild fights..

I promise if you finish your chars and start playing you won't have any reason to complain.. harm isn't as nerfed as people think.. and if the minimum dmg was raised to maybe 1pt away from disrupt dmg then nobody would complain as we'd have a viable way to disrupt..
I honestly think the only people who'd benefit from having 1st circle disrupts are people with the higher cons.. in a disrupt war the higher con usually wins, and i don't see why u would want disrupt wars being here- nobody used disrupt tactics in osi

[Arcanus]

Derrick: Your concerns are very valid. People get used to the way things work and fear change. Keeping your player base happy probably takes priority over accuracy. However, there are many critical things wrong with the combat mechanics on UOSA. I do well with the way PvP works here, and enjoy myself, but I cannot, in good conscience, regard these mechanics as accurate, which is what the shard is all about. In the name of accuracy, I've created a thread listing some of the things I've observed. I don’t have the time or endurance to find crumbs of evidence for all these claims, and it’s probably not worth the uphill battle to get them implemented, but I've been wanting to put my thoughts down for a while.


Platy: Two 2v2s cannot be regarded as irrefutable evidence that disrupts did not disrupt. It doesn't surprise me that they didn't use them, because debuff disrupts are more suited to field PvP, where you are always on the move. A first circle spell is slightly faster to cast than harm, allowing you to stay more mobile. The 2v2 situation is a confined space, with the people fighting on foot. The distance factor isn't there, so there's no harm in casting harm (har har) to disrupt, and knock off a few hit points while you're at it.

Edit: I managed to find a screenshot of weaken spam. See my T2A Accuracy Discrepancies thread.

[Derrick]

Thanks for that post Arcanus, and I'm with you on the time to find the crumbs. I spent about an hour already today looking into what you posted.

A question on the use of harm, why would anyone ever use harm to disrupt if weaken disrupted with 100% reliability?

[crabjuice]

A question on the use of harm, why would anyone ever use harm to disrupt if weaken disrupted with 100% reliability?

Because harm did damage as well as disrupt.

[WoozyRargar]

A question on the use of harm, why would anyone ever use harm to disrupt if weaken disrupted with 100% reliability?

I have found several old UO informational sites that give the advice to use Harm as a disrupting tool, presumably because (as Crab said) Harm disrupts worked just as well as debuff disrupts but also did damage.