Some clarification on rules please

[farnk]

[Myrnae]

Me and the Rusk brothers fish bombed the Brit Gate tower once. The whole thing. I didn't even realize it was against the rules, this was about 2 years ago. Was funny as shit though to stack single fish steaks in every orifice that tower had lol.

Sorry GM's

[Bixby Legbone]

Me and the Rusk brothers fish bombed the Brit Gate tower once. The whole thing. I didn't even realize it was against the rules, this was about 2 years ago. Was funny as shit though to stack single fish steaks in every orifice that tower had lol.

Sorry GM's

I once had a two-story home for sale near the entrance to Hyloth Dungeon. I left the doors unlocked so visitors could go inside to avoid the many poisonous snakes. One day I went to check up on the property and I believe almost every tile of the property was occupied by raw fishsteaks. From floor to ceiling in stacks of two. I never did find out who the culprit is... but something smells fishy around here. I ended up demolishing the house. *peers at Myrnae suspiciously*.

[Myrnae]

I swear my shenanigans were linked to the Brit Tower single incident lol

[UO19862005]

Actually, as I stated before, we only allow trash bombs because we will clean them up, not the other way around. If we did not offer support in cleaning up these trash bombs, they wouldn't be allowed at all.

I understand you will clean up trash bombs, my point was that you said admins are forced to intercede which is not the case. Cleaning bombs is at an admin's discretion and not a guarantee, which makes admin assistance a privilege.

Players are free to request help with sizable trash bombs, and we'll try to help when we're around. It's not an abuse of the system to do that when we specifically say that it can be done that way.

My point was that you said moderate trash bombing is a privilege that can't be done too often, but I strongly disagree. Moderate trash bombing is no more of a privilege than PKing. Moderate trash bombing is legal by UOSA rules, era accurate, and not a privilege but part of the game.

In contrast, trash bomb admin assistance is a privilege at the admin's own discretion that is not guaranteed, not era accurate, and when you continually harass admins to clean up small 300 item trash bombs- that is the real privilege abuse. Not only is it an abuse, it's also unfair to interfere and clean my legal bombs that I spend time and money on to be intended for my enemies and not admins.

As a general statement, it is absolutely true that trash bombs are still legal to produce. You're taking a single instance of trash bomb use and extrapolating a nonexistent general rule. Trash bombs are currently allowed, and if a GM has told you to lay off trash bombing a particular person, then don't trash bomb that person.

What this boils down to is that I'm being told I'm greifing too much. I've been told I can still bomb once a week, just not everyday. Those terms are unacceptable unless the staff tells Sanitorum and his posse they can only gank me once a week and not everyday, but I would never expect or even want the admins to do that. Moderate trash bombs wasting staff time is not a legitimate point either since the staff is not obligated to intervene. Admins should not waste their time with small bombs under 400 items and if they choose to, I cannot help that.

A: This is as effective as saying that the best method to avoid being PKed is not to log on. No practical method for accomplishing this is provided.
B: This is much the same as above, if someone is interested in finding out where you live, alternate housing is just as easy to locate.
C: Blocking a few recall locations does nothing to address the fact that a house exists in a fixed map location.
D: There are time differences between players, and unless your hypothesis is that you should always be on all the time, this is not practical.
E: This implies that the only time a player is trash bombed it is done in retaliation for some act. This is not the case.
F: Boats are vastly different from houses, both in protection and storage capacity. This is not a reasonable solution.

A: There's no practical method for having a secret house location? That's silly. They don't know where my main house location is, otherwise they would of bombed it already.

B: Alternate housing is almost impossible to locate if they don't tell everyone where it's at and they are careful about gating to it from public locations.

C: If you knew the situation, I was gating trash bombs to their house in front of them and if they had any brains at all they would of blocked the location. Yes the item would of eventually decayed, but it would of given them enough time to clean up the steps to get inside. Don't you think that would of been smarter than piling the trash in a box only for me to stealth up on them and hatchet it? They aren't even trying to deal with this, they would just rather cry for admin assistance.

D: Almost every bomb I've delivered was in front of their faces, that is my preferred method. Killing me was absolutely a practical option, if they could of.

E: What are you talking about? Trash bombs are almost always retaliation, everyone knows that. My bombs were certainly retaliation. An apology with some gold could easily fix the situation but they would rather continue to be jerk gankers and then cry to admins every time they get a taste of their own griefing medicine.

I stand by all my suggestions and you're making some very bizarre statements here- Keeping a house location secret from enemies is impossible? Admins are forced to intercede with legal moderate trash bombs? Trash bombs aren't usually an act of retaliation? I don't feel like you're being reasonable. Their grief isn't any different than mine. I don't create lag, it's legal, era accurate, and admins aren't obligated to clean it. Staff should quit appeasing them every time they complain. Being ganked and dry looted repeatedly has definitely wasted more of my time than I waste of theirs with small, legal trash bombs.

[Kaivan]

I understand you will clean up trash bombs, my point was that you said admins are forced to intercede which is not the case. Cleaning bombs is at an admin's discretion and not a guarantee, which makes admin assistance a privilege.

I don't recall ever saying that we are forced to intercede. However, I do recall saying that we will always intercede if someone asks, and that the only reason we allow players to trash bomb in the first place is because we will intercede. The fact that we will intercede is the only reason that the tactic is allowed.

Players are free to request help with sizable trash bombs, and we'll try to help when we're around. It's not an abuse of the system to do that when we specifically say that it can be done that way.

My point was that you said moderate trash bombing is a privilege that can't be done too often, but I strongly disagree. Moderate trash bombing is no more of a privilege than PKing. Moderate trash bombing is legal by UOSA rules, era accurate, and not a privilege but part of the game.

You're free to assume that it's not a privilege, but it is by the very definition of how we handle it. Abuse the privilege and it will be taken away. OSI had a physical harassment policy that they used on a case by case basis as well, so this isn't unique to us.

In contrast, trash bomb admin assistance is a privilege at the admin's own discretion that is not guaranteed, not era accurate, and when you continually harass admins to clean up small 300 item trash bombs- that is the real privilege abuse. Not only is it an abuse, it's also unfair to interfere and clean my legal bombs that I spend time and money on to be intended for my enemies and not admins.

No, the assistance is part of the mechanism that allows you to even do it, and it isn't an abuse of the system or us to request help with cleaning them.

What this boils down to is that I'm being told I'm greifing too much. I've been told I can still bomb once a week, just not everyday. Those terms are unacceptable unless the staff tells Sanitorum and his posse they can only gank me once a week and not everyday, but I would never expect or even want the admins to do that. Moderate trash bombs wasting staff time is not a legitimate point either since the staff is not obligated to intervene. Admins should not waste their time with small bombs under 400 items and if they choose to, I cannot help that.

You're being told that you're using a specific tactic against certain players too frequently, and are being told not to go after those targets anymore. This is different from PKing, stealing, or other uses of mechanics to kill players as those mechanics were put in place for that purpose.

A: There's no practical method for having a secret house location? That's silly. They don't know where my main house location is, otherwise they would of bombed it already.

B: Alternate housing is almost impossible to locate if they don't tell everyone where it's at and they are careful about gating to it from public locations.

C: If you knew the situation, I was gating trash bombs to their house in front of them and if they had any brains at all they would of blocked the location. Yes the item would of eventually decayed, but it would of given them enough time to clean up the steps to get inside. Don't you think that would of been smarter than piling the trash in a box only for me to stealth up on them and hatchet it? They aren't even trying to deal with this, they would just rather cry for admin assistance.

D: Almost every bomb I've delivered was in front of their faces, that is my preferred method. Killing me was absolutely a practical option, if they could of.

E: What are you talking about? Trash bombs are almost always retaliation, everyone knows that. My bombs were certainly retaliation. An apology with some gold could easily fix the situation but they would rather continue to be jerk gankers and then cry to admins every time they get a taste of their own griefing medicine.

This entire set of responses is predicated on using your single instance of trash bombs and related behavior as the barometer for creating a general rule for the use of trash bombs. In the wider application (e.g. a data set greater than one instantaneous data point), every one of your points will bear out to be impractical, nor axiomatic, and we would be foolish to create a general rule based solely on your one example. Any rule we create must contend with the wider application, as ours currently does.

I stand by all my suggestions and you're making some very bizarre statements here- Keeping a house location secret from enemies is impossible? Admins are forced to intercede with legal moderate trash bombs? Trash bombs aren't usually an act of retaliation? I don't feel like you're being reasonable. Their grief isn't any different than mine. I don't create lag, it's legal, era accurate, and admins aren't obligated to clean it. Staff should quit appeasing them every time they complain. Being ganked and dry looted repeatedly has definitely wasted more of my time than I waste of theirs with small, legal trash bombs.

You're free to stand by your suggestions, and you're free to believe that it is no different than any other form of griefing. However, it is a fact that we view and treat trash bombs in a unique way, and it is a fact that if we tell you to stop doing them, those instructions should be followed.

[Malaikat]

Makes perfect sense to me. Houses are fixed points on the map and there's no defense or recourse against stair bombs. If you're sick of being pk'd you can recall elsewhere or get good, newb.

It's defensible using standard game mechanics.

[UO19862005]

I understand you will clean up trash bombs, my point was that you said admins are forced to intercede which is not the case. Cleaning bombs is at an admin's discretion and not a guarantee, which makes admin assistance a privilege.

I don't recall ever saying that we are forced to intercede. However, I do recall saying that we will always intercede if someone asks, and that the only reason we allow players to trash bomb in the first place is because we will intercede. The fact that we will intercede is the only reason that the tactic is allowed.

You said it.

If a player is abusing this privilege and forcing us to intercede too often, we'll tell them to stop with their current practices, because we can't be expected to step in every day to clean up these trash bombs.

Yes you can't step in every day, and it's disingenuous to suggest that you are expected to. Assistance with legal trash bombs is always at an admin's discretion. This is because sometimes bombs are illegal and create lag, other times bombs are legal and do not need to be addressed. If you're just going to clean up a small legal trash bomb every time someone complains, then make a rule against trash bombs because as it stands, your current policy is nothing less than interference with legal activities. Even worse, if you decide to interfere with legal trash bombs at your own discretion which you should not be doing in my opinion, you just tell the trash bomber to quit his legal activity. That biased policy is a joke. If the legal trash bombs are too frequent for you to address, then either don't help, or make it illegal. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

You're free to assume that it's not a privilege, but it is by the very definition of how we handle it. Abuse the privilege and it will be taken away. OSI had a physical harassment policy that they used on a case by case basis as well, so this isn't unique to us.

As it stands, I can moderately trash bomb someone every day and that is legal. The only time it becomes a privilege in your eyes is when the victim complains too much, which is ridiculous. When you actually make a rule about trash bombing instead of doing whatever you feel like a dictator, that is when trash bombing will become a privilege in reality. How you handle the current situation is flawed and irrelevant.

No, the assistance is part of the mechanism that allows you to even do it, and it isn't an abuse of the system or us to request help with cleaning them.

Harassing admins to clean legal trash bombs is more of an abuse than making legal trash bombs.

You're being told that you're using a specific tactic against certain players too frequently, and are being told not to go after those targets anymore. This is different from PKing, stealing, or other uses of mechanics to kill players as those mechanics were put in place for that purpose.

Then tell the gankers to quit using their specific tactics against me too often. I hope you realize the blatant double standard here. There's no such thing as doing a legal aspect of the game too often. Anarcho never mentioned a bombing frequency limit last year when I asked about the trash bombing rules, this is some kind of new unofficial standard you guys are using. I also don't think you have any grounds to suggest that trash bombing was not a mechanic realized by the developers.

This entire set of responses is predicated on using your single instance of trash bombs and related behavior as the barometer for creating a general rule for the use of trash bombs. In the wider application (e.g. a data set greater than one instantaneous data point), every one of your points will bear out to be impractical, nor axiomatic, and we would be foolish to create a general rule based solely on your one example. Any rule we create must contend with the wider application, as ours currently does.

Anyone can buy a new house and anyone can conceal their house location from enemies. That is not impossible like you have suggested, otherwise my main house would of been trash bombed by now. Anyone can use diplomacy too, as trash bombs are always in retaliation. For you to suggest that trash bombs are not almost always retaliation is a poor argument.

You're free to stand by your suggestions, and you're free to believe that it is no different than any other form of griefing. However, it is a fact that we view and treat trash bombs in a unique way, and it is a fact that if we tell you to stop doing them, those instructions should be followed.

The only difference is that I would rather receive a small trash bomb than to be ventrilo gank dry looted every time I hit the graveyard. I can always get a new house and keep it a secret, but I cannot control ganking. It's so easy to defend against trash bombs that I can't take you seriously. Again, if there was no valid defense, my main would of been bombed by now.

[Freeza]

This is not a democracy. There are rules set in place. If those who moderate this shard ask you to stop, you can either stop or continue doing what you feel is well within the "rules". By continuing such behavior, you run the risk of action being taken. I don't get the need for the constant back and fourth. You were asked to stop by moderators of the shard. You might like not their decision, or how they are running things but its their shard, not yours. Either abide by their ruling or face the consequences.

You have every right to go play on another shard that is more conducive to your play style as well. If you plan on continuing to play here though, I would listen to the moderators warnings, as opposed to continually arguing with them.

[UO19862005]

I understand this is not a democracy. They can make whatever rules they want but when they don't play by their own rules, that's when I have a problem. The current broken unwritten policy is to biasedly help some people with cleaning small legal trash bombs and telling the bomber to quit, while not helping other people with small legal trash bombs at their own discretion. This might not be a democracy, but I do expect some consistency. If they want to help clean a small legal trash bomb at their own discretion that's fine, but they shouldn't tell me to quit something that is supposedly legal. That's the same thing as telling me to quit because I'm greifing too much. I don't need you to tell me I'm free to find another shard either, as I can promise you that will be my course of action if the admins don't come around on this issue.

[nubnub]

I don't need you to tell me I'm free to find another shard either, as I can promise you that will be my course of action if the admins don't come around on this issue.

The admins have spent quite a bit of time responding to your drivel, time=money... donate and shut up.

[Soma]

Jesus christ, just learn how to PvP it's a lot easier than gathering 1000 shitty items

[Anarcho]

That biased policy is a joke. If the legal trash bombs are too frequent for you to address, then either don't help, or make it illegal. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

How do we make it illegal?

Is putting one item on someone's steps illegal? 10? Which arbitrary number?

It's not a black and white situation, and it can cause lag varying by the player.

Cleaning up trash bombs at our discretion and availability and keeping an eye on those perpetrating is really is the only enforceable way of handling this in a practical sense, given our house decay system.

I can clear this up for you right now, you don't have a guarantee that when you trash bomb someone that they will have to clean it up themselves. Given our decay system, and the variables involved in this, this is how we must handle it.

[farnk]

[UO19862005]

How do we make it illegal? Is putting one item on someone's steps illegal? 10? Which arbitrary number? It's not a black and white situation, and it can cause lag varying by the player.

Cleaning up trash bombs at our discretion and availability and keeping an eye on those perpetrating is really is the only enforceable way of handling this in a practical sense, given our house decay system.

I can clear this up for you right now, you don't have a guarantee that when you trash bomb someone that they will have to clean it up themselves. Given our decay system, and the variables involved in this, this is how we must handle it.

Kaivan has already given me a number of 1200 items and above as being illegal, which seems excessive to me. I normally wouldn't do more than 400 items, and usually less. I've never had a problem with admins cleaning at their discretion, my problem is this new bombing frequency rule they are making up. Now they are saying I can only drop legal trash bombs once a week, which is news to me. If the steps are already clean I should be able to bomb whenever I want which was legal to do last year. I shouldn't be forced to look at clean steps of my enemies all week if there is no written rule against it!

I know this is not a democracy and the staff is obviously going to do whatever they want, I'm simply asking for unbiased treatment. If admins want to limit how often I legally bomb, they should have a rule for legal bombing frequency. The current unwritten policy is to clean the steps of whoever the staff wants while telling the bomber to quit even if he was 100% legal, and at the same time they can ignore other small legal trash bombs at their own discretion. Whether admins clean or not is fine with me as long as I'm not told to quit doing something which is supposed to be legal. I'm simply asking for even treatment and not ambiguous bomb frequency limits.

Dropping small trash bombs on someone's step everyday is 100% legal until someone complains about it, and even then it's still legal unless an admin tells me to quit. That's ridiculous, admins in my opinion should ignore requests to clean up small trash bombs and admins have always reserved that right to refuse help. If admins want me to quit legally bombing clean steps everyday, there should be a rule against the frequency of legal bombing. Arbitrary demands to quit legal trash bombs based on who is involved or how an admin is feeling that day is not right and it opens the door to the preferential treatment of players!