No weapon hits while running

[Senses]

I think so much of this problem would be solved if Derrick, Kaivan, and Faust would simply roll up a couple of GM dexxers, then go out anonmously on the server and engage in some actual PvP. I'm not talking test center. I'm saying go out amongst your players and see what we see. This is not some vague generality or misunderstanding, its very clear and understood from anyone who has actually spent time chasing a Tank Mage in circles.

[Hemperor]

Another one of your assumptions, Faust.

How many times do I have to tell you that I played from 97 through Third Dawn?

[RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR]

I think so much of this problem would be solved if Derrick, Kaivan, and Faust would simply roll up a couple of GM dexxers, then go out anonmously on the server and engage in some actual PvP. I'm not talking test center. I'm saying go out amongst your players and see what we see. This is not some vague generality or misunderstanding, its very clear and understood from anyone who has actually spent time chasing a Tank Mage in circles.

Uhoh do I smell a new Dexxer PK guild.

[deathstar]

Readin all of the posts I guess it kinda comes down to whats more important. Derrick and Faust can beat the door down with the accuracy as we all know thats what they strive for on this shard. The only problem in my opinion is like others have expressed connection avaliablity and hardware has obviously changed. That automatically effects mechnics period. Nobody wants to see a tank mage running down any kind of character swinging every 2 seconds while running... On the other hand not swinging at all while trying to chase people down is extremely asinine.
You have problems either way you look at it. Personally from a field pvp standpoint thats where it takes the hit, dueling to me has nothing to do with this nore do I want to hear about "Well 1 on 1 delays blah blah"... A duel is entirely different from the field pvp and if you cant chase someone down because your weapon doesn't swing while chasing someone because they refuse to stop running which a good portion of the people on this damn shard run like god damn cheetah's.

Derrick: We really are going for mechanical accuracy on Second Age. This is a known mechanic of the era, and it is already implemented, has been for some time, and honestly doesn't favor either class in my view (not that if it did would my standing on this be swayed).

Thats just what I keep looking back on, I mean we can complain all we want but it's the era. but a conpensation should be made in my opinion because regardless of how the mechanics were back then, hardware and connections changed that. So if you don't want to change the mechanics you need to figure out something else to change to equal it all out. Either way your still changing something from the era.

[RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR]

Readin all of the posts I guess it kinda comes down to whats more important. Derrick and Faust can beat the door down with the accuracy as we all know thats what they strive for on this shard. The only problem in my opinion is like others have expressed connection avaliablity and hardware has obviously changed. That automatically effects mechnics period. Nobody wants to see a tank mage running down any kind of character swinging every 2 seconds while running... On the other hand not swinging at all while trying to chase people down is extremely asinine.
You have problems either way you look at it. Personally from a field pvp standpoint thats where it takes the hit, dueling to me has nothing to do with this nore do I want to hear about "Well 1 on 1 delays blah blah"... A duel is entirely different from the field pvp and if you cant chase someone down because your weapon doesn't swing while chasing someone because they refuse to stop running which a good portion of the people on this damn shard run like god damn cheetah's.

Derrick: We really are going for mechanical accuracy on Second Age. This is a known mechanic of the era, and it is already implemented, has been for some time, and honestly doesn't favor either class in my view (not that if it did would my standing on this be swayed).

Thats just what I keep looking back on, I mean we can complain all we want but it's the era. but a conpensation should be made in my opinion because regardless of how the mechanics were back then, hardware and connections changed that. So if you don't want to change the mechanics you need to figure out something else to change to equal it all out. Either way your still changing something from the era.

I think the difference is that when you where doing dexxervdexxer on OSI most people would just stand there and go at it until one of you died or got extremely low on HP, then theres the fact that 80% of the players where newbies, then theres the fact that brush and little flora and fauna
stopped you and it was everywhere something they can't put in because it is client side, not to mention everyone has tree hacks (Or atleast I do) so I will never accidentally run into a tree, the old T2A client did not give you always run, and also the old T2A client gave you this tiny 800x600 screen that your paper doll took up half of making it much easier to run into a bush, they had fast walk in back then so It's not lag, and finally the Disrupt Delay they will be adding should make it easier for a dexxer to kill a tank mage I believe, maybe I'm just a idiot.

[Faust]

The recast delay being fixed will definitely increase a dexer's ability against a mage.

[MatronDeWinter]

I dont care either way, I never will play a dexer, but there are some really good points here. I believe I read someone saying how frustrating it was to finally work up a character and take them out only to run up to someone and stand there looking at them like a moron.

I am all about the complete T2A package, some of my other posts include removing the stupid-ass help-im-stuck option as well as unsecuring the trading ect.. But I realise that this is a problem. As RAR and Faust stated, removing the timer-only-when-stationary system would make Tank mages really nasty, but something can still be done. How about a dex based timer, but only while moving. If you have no dex and wish to abuse the 2 sec insta-hit then you can, but if you have dex, you should be able to advance your timer on the run. Just a thought.

Edit: and I do believe the recast fix will improve dexers and we should wait and see how that works. I think Faust is doing an excelent job, even though I do not agree with everything he says, his job (accuracy and research) is top notch, nobody can deny that.

[Eulogy]

I played dexers exclusively through T2A.

I started playing a mage in UO:R, and pretty much exclusively a mage for PvP for a long time.

I recently took my newly created dexer out for some group PvP, and it is very true that everyone just runs straight away and chugs GH, uses wands, and mini heals until they get enough mana to do anything. Anytime I do happen to catch up, I never have a swing ready. Never.

I don't think anyone here is really arguing for the removal of swing timers not advancing while moving. I don't think anyone here can proove that this mechanic is inaccurate. The argument made is that it does not feel accurate.

I highly doubt that anyone can be 100% positive when they say that T2A gameplay feel is exactly that of this gameplay feel, as far as swing timers and movement are concerned. I've read numerous comments by regular players, tank mage enthusiasts, and dexer enthusiasts on this issue. If so many people have the same type of opinion, it shouldn't be shot down and forgotten.

I think that before anything can be done on this issue, the "tick" timers need to be implemented, but I think a good starting point to consider and discuss about this issue might be that maybe swing timers should move at half speed while on the move. So what's that put the majority of PvPers, 4 second hally swings while on the move, and 2 second hally swings while being able to stand still.

[RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR]

I played dexers exclusively through T2A.

I started playing a mage in UO:R, and pretty much exclusively a mage for PvP for a long time.

I recently took my newly created dexer out for some group PvP, and it is very true that everyone just runs straight away and chugs GH, uses wands, and mini heals until they get enough mana to do anything. Anytime I do happen to catch up, I never have a swing ready. Never.

I don't think anyone here is really arguing for the removal of swing timers not advancing while moving. I don't think anyone here can proove that this mechanic is inaccurate. The argument made is that it does not feel accurate.

I highly doubt that anyone can be 100% positive when they say that T2A gameplay feel is exactly that of this gameplay feel, as far as swing timers and movement are concerned. I've read numerous comments by regular players, tank mage enthusiasts, and dexer enthusiasts on this issue. If so many people have the same type of opinion, it shouldn't be shot down and forgotten.

I think that before anything can be done on this issue, the "tick" timers need to be implemented, but I think a good starting point to consider and discuss about this issue might be that maybe swing timers should move at half speed while on the move. So what's that put the majority of PvPers, 4 second hally swings while on the move, and 2 second hally swings while being able to stand still.

Pre stun punch, if someone has a good ping, explosion pouches, greater heal pots, and the ability to place stone walls and recall, they should always get away from you, this is especially true with mounts, where as Choppa X is used to no mounts, where one can easily ebolt before an off screen.

[RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR]

I forgot to mention that Choppas old shard had a 3 tile longer range for spells than we do here, and dexxers were pretty much impossible to kill 1v1 last time I played there, if they were well stocked. Even though they were impossible to kill you could still always get away from them 1v1 if you just used wall of stone and a few teleports, so it wasn't really different than it was here.

Anyways I think we just need to all agree that off screening is for pussys that should solve PVP on this shard, maybe a thread in the PVP section with screen shots of these pussy off screeners.

And the spell delay timers should make it better to be a dexxer but it still wont keep people from running away from you.

[Jiggo]

I have been following this thread, and find it interesting on how to maintain a balance between how the game was coded, and how it was played.

This suggestion will probably draw alot of fire, but I think it is worth discussing. This is going to be long, but overarching for all aspects of gameplay involving swinging a weapon.

Most UO patch notes are pretty ambiguous. The patch note clearly states that your swing timer does not advance while moving, but it also says that you would not have held your swing if you were not in range? What the hell does not mean? You surely do not lose your swing here if you are not in range of your target. You cannot dodge a swing by moving out of range as you could in pret2a UO. I have not found a good explanation for what this part of the patch note refers too, however we are basing a MASSIVE chunk of the game mechanics of this shard on that patch note.

All that aside, lets focus on the swinging while moving bit.

Ok, so lets go over some gameplay facts, and observations about the era:

I agree (and I think we all can) that the spirit of t2a would be lost if you could fully swing while moving. Tank mages could not refresh their hally while running full speed (this would not be a good thing, especially for dexers. 2s swing hallies on the run? I think not). You could also not endlessly dodge someones attacks to avoid losing your swing, while still getting your 2s hally swings. You had to stop moving to refresh your hally, and thats why many people assumed that the only way to refresh your hally, was to cast a 6th circle spell. It froze you in place for the 2 seconds required to refresh, thus, it was assumed that the spell caused the refresh. Years later, the spell refreshing the swing has been debunked.

Ok, so that said:

Yes, we agree, that the swing timer did not advance while running, BUT, it will advance when momentarily stopping. However, as stated in previous threads, RUNUO measures time with exact dates, down to the millisecond. Here is where allowances for interpretation come into play.

If you pause, how does the timer resume? Does it begin counting off milliseconds? Does it advance in a .25 second tick? a .5 second tick? a full second tick? If it were one of these, possibly a .5 second tick, you could essentially run back and forth and almost refreshing your swings on the turns when running past someone. Any pause at all in your stride would advance your swing a half second.

Where in the patch notes does it define this and how exactly it advanced? There is no evidence. It is merely speculation. As players have stated, the current situation does not feel accurate. If the way the timer ticks was changed, it would still not allow tank mages to run all over the place refreshing their swing, while still giving dexers functionality.

I think that when we read patch notes we should be very careful to take into account what they actually mean and refer too. They are not lines of code that we are reading. They are brief explanations by the OSI developers, that give suggestions of change, while still keeping the playerbase largely in the dark about the exact effects it will have on the game. These intricate details were discovered through hours and months of gameplay. To say "This patch note clearly states...." anything is completely false and counterproductive to what this shard is trying to accomplish.

Patch notes do not state anything "clearly".

That was long. Pick it apart, hopefully it helps some.

[Chaos]

I have never played OSI must less T2A osi .. but though being of the Fourms Patch Notes are used as a guiding point .. and alot of era acc. essays are used for more in depth desp. of how things worked .. so maybe that would be a good place to look for ideas??

[Derrick]

To say "This patch note clearly states...." anything is completely false and counterproductive to what this shard is trying to accomplish.

Patch notes do not state anything "clearly".

Wow this really put a smile on my face, it's so incredibly true. There's little doubt in my mind at least that these 'notes' were either completely intentionally ambiguous, or they were written by someone born on the moon.

The number of interpretations that have been come up with from some of the more vague single statements is astounding.

These theories on weapon swings and movement are something that I've been thinking about often. It's true that the timers are very different, but everything that I'd postulated about the difference in timing resolution really had made me think that the OSI timers would be less forgiving than ours, but I can also see how it could be seen the other way around, although gaining a full tick on each turn and lag stop doesn't really reconcile well with era player experiences either.

[Kraarug]

To say "This patch note clearly states...." anything is completely false and counterproductive to what this shard is trying to accomplish.

Patch notes do not state anything "clearly".

Wow this really put a smile on my face, it's so incredibly true. There's little doubt in my mind at least that these 'notes' were either completely intentionally ambiguous, or they were written by someone born on the moon.

The number of interpretations that have been come up with from some of the more vague single statements is astounding.

These theories on weapon swings and movement are something that I've been thinking about often. It's true that the timers are very different, but everything that I'd postulated about the difference in timing resolution really had made me think that the OSI timers would be less forgiving than ours, but I can also see how it could be seen the other way around, although gaining a full tick on each turn and lag stop doesn't really reconcile well with era player experiences either.

I know this is a difficult issue to address but I just chased an apparant GM Runner around the GY and at 120 Stam I wasn't able to get a swing off when he finally stopped for a slit bit.

That's after running and running and running... that's just way off for some reason.

[Kraarug]

I have been following this thread, and find it interesting on how to maintain a balance between how the game was coded, and how it was played.

This suggestion will probably draw alot of fire, but I think it is worth discussing. This is going to be long, but overarching for all aspects of gameplay involving swinging a weapon.

Most UO patch notes are pretty ambiguous. The patch note clearly states that your swing timer does not advance while moving, but it also says that you would not have held your swing if you were not in range? What the hell does not mean? You surely do not lose your swing here if you are not in range of your target. You cannot dodge a swing by moving out of range as you could in pret2a UO. I have not found a good explanation for what this part of the patch note refers too, however we are basing a MASSIVE chunk of the game mechanics of this shard on that patch note.

All that aside, lets focus on the swinging while moving bit.

Ok, so lets go over some gameplay facts, and observations about the era:

I agree (and I think we all can) that the spirit of t2a would be lost if you could fully swing while moving. Tank mages could not refresh their hally while running full speed (this would not be a good thing, especially for dexers. 2s swing hallies on the run? I think not). You could also not endlessly dodge someones attacks to avoid losing your swing, while still getting your 2s hally swings. You had to stop moving to refresh your hally, and thats why many people assumed that the only way to refresh your hally, was to cast a 6th circle spell. It froze you in place for the 2 seconds required to refresh, thus, it was assumed that the spell caused the refresh. Years later, the spell refreshing the swing has been debunked.

Ok, so that said:

Yes, we agree, that the swing timer did not advance while running, BUT, it will advance when momentarily stopping. However, as stated in previous threads, RUNUO measures time with exact dates, down to the millisecond. Here is where allowances for interpretation come into play.

If you pause, how does the timer resume? Does it begin counting off milliseconds? Does it advance in a .25 second tick? a .5 second tick? a full second tick? If it were one of these, possibly a .5 second tick, you could essentially run back and forth and almost refreshing your swings on the turns when running past someone. Any pause at all in your stride would advance your swing a half second.

Where in the patch notes does it define this and how exactly it advanced? There is no evidence. It is merely speculation. As players have stated, the current situation does not feel accurate. If the way the timer ticks was changed, it would still not allow tank mages to run all over the place refreshing their swing, while still giving dexers functionality.

I think that when we read patch notes we should be very careful to take into account what they actually mean and refer too. They are not lines of code that we are reading. They are brief explanations by the OSI developers, that give suggestions of change, while still keeping the playerbase largely in the dark about the exact effects it will have on the game. These intricate details were discovered through hours and months of gameplay. To say "This patch note clearly states...." anything is completely false and counterproductive to what this shard is trying to accomplish.

Patch notes do not state anything "clearly".

That was long. Pick it apart, hopefully it helps some.

I'm right with you... that's why one of my posts said that maybe the answer is in the 'ticks' of time.

Derrick, what if you put the combat related timers on a tick system and, as Jibbo stated, allowed time advances in 250 milisec ticks.

With everything combat related on such a ticker, it should all be even keeled AND provide for some way to recrete the OSI tick timer and possible the T2A feel we have been looking for.