PvP Inaccuracies

[nightshark]

Anyone who argues attack last is speaking entirely from RunUO shard experiences. Attack last spam has always been possible on OSI, and probably still is.

The previous post makes it pretty crystal clear.

[Faust]

esteben, a lot has changed since this thread was started. The exact swing timer that OSI used was extracted from the OSI code recently and it is totally different from what is being used here. The most notable differences are two specific instances. First, movement has no baring on the timer itself and does not pause it. Second, the range check was substantially different in UOR compared to the Pre:UOR days and this is reflected in a mini-uor update patch note with very good precision. The way it works from my analysis of the actual code in regard to "insta hit refreshes" or as some people call them here "weapon cycles" is actually a bug in the code that allows you to bypass the equip delay. This is done during the wrestling delay and can allow you to essentially swing faster if you wasn't hit with the equip delay that would restart the entire swing over upon equipping a hally or any weapon with a long delay.

We are currently using a mixture or hybrid of the UOR and t2a eras here. This hybrid version needs to be fixed to reflect a more authentic version of the combat swings for this era and is a bit long over due. Archery for one will be improved when it's fixed and slow melee weapons will no longer circumvent a huge majority of their delays. For example, a halberd on a tank mage here can swing just about every 2 seconds when this shouldn't be possible.

Equipping a weapon should also not be interrupting spells and allow a spell to continue. This is reflected in the OSI code as well. However, trying to target a spell with a weapon equipped will fizzle the spell and produce the "you must have your hands free to cast or meditate" system message. Doing this will typically harm a player though since the equip delay effects the player still.


I wish more people would urge the fix to the new swing timer but this isn't the case for some reason.

[nightshark]

Equipping a weapon should also not be interrupting spells and allow a spell to continue. This is reflected in the OSI code as well. However, trying to target a spell with a weapon equipped will fizzle the spell and produce the "you must have your hands free to cast or meditate" system message. Doing this will typically harm a player though since the equip delay effects the player still.

Equipping a weapon during a spell-cast does not interrupt the spell. This behavior is the intended result of the current patch, but was a bug. This bug was later changed to interrupt the spell if a weapon is armed during a spell-cast. Thanks to this bug, a combo such as: (translation adding context) Cast Explosion => <context added>Immediately, during the cast,</context added> Arm weapon => Hit with weapon => Target Explosion.

This is pretty difficult to understand, but my understanding of it is that non-disrupted spellcasts were removed before Oct '99 (date of the article)

On the contrary, during the first 6 months of UO:R I had a "turtle mage", which was standard 5x +parry/heal. The beauty was being able to equip shields mid-cast and not get interrupted. This was not possible to do with weapons, since you had to disarm your spellbook in order to cast. The ability to do this was eventually removed completely. It does back up what Faust is saying though, though neither is actual proof...

I am astounded how noone remembers playing turtle mages in UO:R (pre pub 15 or whenever the forced spellbook equip was removed - stun mages were not viable templates at this time), they were flavour of the month before they were removed, and it was a total kickass template.

[MatronDeWinter]

I am astounded how noone remembers playing turtle mages...

http://my.uosecondage.com/Status/Player/55397

I still have no grasp on the proposed changes. What does "Archer will get a boost" mean exactly? How does this effect tanks, what will change exactly. Nobody has been able to answer this for me yet.

[nightshark]

I am astounded how noone remembers playing turtle mages...

http://my.uosecondage.com/Status/Player/55397

I still have no grasp on the proposed changes. What does "Archer will get a boost" mean exactly? How does this effect tanks, what will change exactly. Nobody has been able to answer this for me yet.

Yeah, I've seen that character on the other thread. Great defensive.. hah. That's kind've different to what I was talking about though. In other news... how the hell did you murder 4 people with that thing?

[Faust]

I still have no grasp on the proposed changes. What does "Archer will get a boost" mean exactly? How does this effect tanks, what will change exactly. Nobody has been able to answer this for me yet.

The one second delay in damage when an archer shoots should actually be incorporated into the ranged weapon's delay itself. All ranged weapons would reduce the amount of time when damage takes place by one second. The reason this is the case is because of the way the original swing timer works based on the 'swing states' that is what determines the movement and damage delay in archery. There are other bonuses that archery will gain such as being able to save a swing/shot, etc...

This will effect tank mages tremendously. Honestly, they will be less powerful since hally mages won't be able to hit every 2 seconds by cycling a weapon.

[Rendar]

I still have no grasp on the proposed changes. What does "Archer will get a boost" mean exactly? How does this effect tanks, what will change exactly. Nobody has been able to answer this for me yet.

The one second delay in damage when an archer shoots should actually be incorporated into the ranged weapon's delay itself. All ranged weapons would reduce the amount of time when damage takes place by one second. The reason this is the case is because of the way the original swing timer works based on the 'swing states' that is what determines the movement and damage delay in archery. There are other bonuses that archery will gain such as being able to save a swing/shot, etc...

This will effect tank mages tremendously. Honestly, they will be less powerful since hally mages won't be able to hit every 2 seconds by cycling a weapon.

Meaning people might actually use katana's, war axe's and quarteraves like they did during t2a?
Uhm... YAY!

[MatronDeWinter]

The one second delay in damage when an archer shoots should actually be incorporated into the ranged weapon's delay itself. All ranged weapons would reduce the amount of time when damage takes place by one second. The reason this is the case is because of the way the original swing timer works based on the 'swing states' that is what determines the movement and damage delay in archery. There are other bonuses that archery will gain such as being able to save a swing/shot, etc...

So, instead of attacking someone, and then one second later the arrow(damage) hits (how it is currently), you will attack someone, and the bow will take 1 second to shoot, but the damage will be instant? (if so: how is that a benefit?)

Or, do you mean that the delay between shots should be 1 second less? I really don't understand what you are trying to indicate.

[Faust]

The way the RunUO code works for ranged/melee is pretty simple.

Melee
1. Wait Delay
2. Swing
3. Damage is immediate

Archery
1. Wait Delay
2. Shoot
3. One Second Damage Delay

The one second delay for ranged damage is suppose to be a part of the swing delay for archery.

Here is an example to show the difference for a standard bow that has a speed base of 20...

Bow Stats - 25 Stam
Delay in Ticks = 60000 / ((Stam + 100) * Weapon Speed <--- 24 Ticks that equates to a 6 second delay.

Current Process
The shot takes place exactly when the delay ends and the damage delay is processed immediately.

Original Process
The shot takes place one second before the end of the delay and damage is applied when the delay ends.

A bow in other words takes 7 seconds for damage to be dealt compared to the amount of 6 that it should be if the original timer was being used here.

This is a very complicated process involving a variable derived by Batlin called a 'Swing State' in the original OSI code. The swing state has three portions involving the standard weapon delay, buffer delay, and animation delay. The animation in the original code is a part of the actual delay of ranged weapons. The buffer delay for archery is the 'plant and shoot' movement restriction for archery. This exists for melee weapons also in the original code but does not apply the portion of the code that resets it for ranged weapons upon moving.

Try taking a look at Batlin's decompilation process over at JoinUO.com if you want to better understand the process. I have took a lot of time to review the code of the original timer to fully understand it and it definitely takes some time to understand it compared to the way it works in the RunUO code. The two are vastly different and would change the way weapons function on here a lot in my opinion.

[MatronDeWinter]

Bow Stats - 25 Stam
Delay in Ticks = 60000 / ((Stam + 100) * Weapon Speed <--- 24 Ticks that equates to a 6 second delay.

Current Process
The shot takes place exactly when the delay ends and the damage delay is processed immediately.

Original Process
The shot takes place one second before the end of the delay and damage is applied when the delay ends.

Basically it incorporates the 1 sec damage delay into the swing delay. Making archery shoot 1 second faster on each repeat. Archery, from an insta-hit standpoint, remains the same.

I assume this means that non-archery weapons will be processed the same way, only without the delay in damage, but lose the ability to "refresh" and keep the "insta hit"?

That's what I took from it, hope thats correct. Thanks for the explanation.

[Faust]

Pretty much that is it.

Weapon cycling/refreshing still is possible but it's only a way to bypass the equip delay by utilizing a bug in the swing states instead of shaving an entire 2 or more seconds off of the hally delay.

The original swing timer code doesn't hold a swing, it simply repeats and will swing if the target is in range or restart if the opponent is not.

[Eaglestaff]

There are other bonuses that archery will gain such as being able to save a swing/shot, etc...

Do You mean that it will be possible to arm an hxb and insta-fire right after fighting with a fast melee weapon? Because I have been trying everything to avoid the delay when switching from melee to archery and I havent found a way. No matter how I've tried working the swing timers, equip delays, and all the mechanics I've heard you detail here from what I can see bows take the full time to fire if switching from melee.

[Faust]

The current swing timer forces a bow to wait out the entire delay if the shot isn't ready to fire. However, the original swing timer that is currently being worked on has more to it than a few of us had previously assumed. The swing timer if still found to be a looping timer during combat gives archery an edge because the swing timer loops with melee where as the archery 'plant and shoot' requirement essentially pauses the timer in place for ranged saving the shot until it's used. Hopefully the updated new swing timer will be ready for testing soon for us all to get an idea of what it will end up being like here.

[Eaglestaff]

Thanks for the reply Faust but is that a "yes" or a "no"? Meaning if I swing with a fast weapon and then refresh that faster weapon's timer will I then be able to insta fire a bow?

[MatronDeWinter]

That sounds more realistic. I don't see how archery would even be usable (especially considering there are 9999 sources saying you just stopped for a split second to shoot then kept on moving) under the older system that was on test.