A part of the game you say ??

[Kaivan]

I was under the presumption that you may have been familiar with the bug. If you were familiar, you would understand its relevance to LOS. I am not going to tangle because I have important things to do.

Alright Kaivan, I finished what I needed to finish for tomorrow/later today.

I'll trust your knowledge over LOS to tie in everything. But the Pre-T2A house break-in bug I referenced earlier allowed an individual to target by relative location an area under the house and teleport. You would then mark a rune, recall, and find yourself in a black area under the house. You couldn't loot any items because you couldn't see them, and you were to far under the house. Therefore, you would mark another rune and gate to that location and you would pop up further. You could loot items close to the door and that was it. You were 1 tile inside the house, and effectively trapped. You couldn't move, and only half of your character was visible (other half was literally under the floor). Obviously the only relevant information you will need is the initial teleport. The patch information remedied this exploit. Outside of that, there isn't any other proof that exist. There isn't a Dr. Twister archive anywhere or other Pre-T2A or T2A exploit sites that exist that I can show you.

So the questions are, was the bug reference sufficient? Is the initial teleport LOS related? Exploiters were effectively teleporting under the steps/door.

I asked you to provide evidence in the hope that you would find the evidence that explicitly made teleport impossible as a component of this bug. Specifically that teleport has a set of checks that it makes to ensure that when you try to teleport to a location, you are actually able to successfully "exist" at that location. This means that you can't teleport to a location with something that you can't walk through that would exist in the same space you would, and a house tile is something that fits that bill. Additionally, there are explicit checks to make sure that you aren't teleporting near any houses or ships, and the check for houses and ships was introduced with the November 5, 1997 patch as follows:

Teleporting too close to houses and ships is now impossible.

So, the exploit that you claim was fixed over a month later, which necessarily relied upon teleport, was strictly impossible. It was, however, possible that recall and gate did not perform the correct collision detection checks to make sure that a location that was marked before a house was placed there was properly blocked. These checks are very explicit in the demo scripts, and prevent any exploit of this nature.

So, in short, this has nothing to do with LoS.

[Vhyx]

Your confusing era experience and era accuracy; they are not the same and in fact could be considered mutually exclusive. The atmosphere of the era -- one where this was all an experience of newness for everyone, and the good will you find with the massings of 5000+ people per shard -- are one of a social experience, and cannot be re-engineered by force. On the other hand, era accuracy as it is stated here, is about mechanical era accuracy. The goal is to make things from a server standpoint work exactly, or as close as possible, to how they did back in '99 -- and from there, where the social experience is taken is one of the players.

What you're describing is a side effect of the fact that its a 15 year old game, on a shard hoping to recreate a time period from 13 years ago, in a sandbox environment with nearly total freedom. All of the more casual players moved on to greener pastures long ago, so what you're left with is largely those with a hardcore love and appreciation of UO. And for many, that hardcore love and appreciation goes hand in hand with the play styles you describe.

Glad I hit "preview" before I posted my response to NewToUOSA, because it would have been a repeat of this.

Anyway,

One big mistake that I believe new players make when they decide to start playing here is thinking that the experience will be the same as it was on OSI, including social-interaction policies. The reality is much different and it can be a brutal experience.

[chumbucket]

It is not that hard to prevent dying from this so-called "exploit", and it has been rehashed to death. Again, please use the search function on these forums for previous coments on how to do it, and how to prevent it.

I appreciate that to you it is nothing and an easily dismissed (non)issue. To me, it has become apparent over time that this isn't an "era-accurate" server at all, since clearly this exploit was never sanctioned on any official game server and certainly never would have been (and for other reasons beat to death on these forums as you suggest). Rather, in my experience this server strives to be as "hard-core" as possible and strives to create a true sense of anarchy and mayhem. I'm not suggesting this is a bad thing but it isn't remotely era-accurate and it is not conducive to fostering the participation of members that wish to play in a semi-casual era-accurate style of play. Truth is it may have appealed to me before I had a family, kids, a business to run and other adult obligations. I just don't know if I'm motivated enough to spend that kind of time and effort to be part of an uber-elite server and to jump through all the hoops.

You're probably correct, I should have read through the forums thoroughly before starting to play so I would have realized the real nature of the community. Perhaps I was naive to take at face value the "era-accurate" description or at least I had a different idea of what that means. Like I said, I'm not sure right now if I'll play again... the fact that I have several friends/family playing on the server is the reason I hesitate to say I'll likely quit outright. Whether I play again or not I have no resentment about the server or how it is run and only hope that my experience can be a cautionary tale to anyone contemplating the notion of striking out in this new world. Certainly a game like this can't possibly appeal to everyone and the onus is on the new player to adapt to this established community. It is just my personal opinion that embracing an exploit under the guise of an era-accurate game paradigm is inexplicable and potentially enough to prohibit my participation.

This person has done what 90% of you can't: Present his views in a clear and mostly non-insulting way! That said, I think you are overstating how tough it is here. Move your house and you'll be fine. Use a house that someone will lend, and there are a lot of people who lend houses to new players, and you'll be fine. It can be a rough place in UOSA, but for the most part you can avoid it if you think ahead of time. And there are a lot of people who will help you.

Also: Era accuracy, as a I understand it, involves the underlying mechanics not the consequences of those mechanics given today's technology, etc.. As someone said, the experience may not replicate the era experience, the policies may not replicate era policies, and so on.

[Pirul]

Corruption and Vhyx beat me to it.

It is not wether it was prevalent or not, it is wether it was possible or not.

This is not "Play here and feel like you're playing in 1999 OSI", this is "Play here and do what you could do in 1999 OSI".

Fede, and everyone else, I suggest you read the About page from UOSA. Particularly:

We do not intend to ever change any aspect of normal game play to particularly favor any play style or to protect or further expose any players to the in-game risk that was a large part of this era.

We will especially not pull aspects of other eras into this one, even with an overwhelming demand of players.

We believe that "proper" game play can only be achieved by taking the era as a whole and accept it for what it was. Tampering with the era in hope of achieving balance is not something that we will do, nor do we believe is achievable across all play styles.

So it is rational to assume that it would be a great attribute for UOSA to retain population. It is also a fact that the staff will not modify correct mechanics to achieve it.

[NewToUOSA]

Your confusing era experience and era accuracy; they are not the same and in fact could be considered mutually exclusive. The atmosphere of the era -- one where this was all an experience of newness for everyone, and the good will you find with the massings of 5000+ people per shard -- are one of a social experience, and cannot be re-engineered by force. On the other hand, era accuracy as it is stated here, is about mechanical era accuracy. The goal is to make things from a server standpoint work exactly, or as close as possible, to how they did back in '99 -- and from there, where the social experience is taken is one of the players.

What you're describing is a side effect of the fact that its a 15 year old game, on a shard hoping to recreate a time period from 13 years ago, in a sandbox environment with nearly total freedom. All of the more casual players moved on to greener pastures long ago, so what you're left with is largely those with a hardcore love and appreciation of UO. And for many, that hardcore love and appreciation goes hand in hand with the play styles you describe.

No, I am not confused. I understand the distinction you are highlighting but it is not relevant and the two terms you mention are clearly not mutually exclusive. Perhaps what you meant to say is that they are not mutually inclusive? In any case parse all the words you wish but I don't see any logical twists that can get you from a stated game mechanic exploit to your position. Just say it, people on the server like the exploit because it allows you to be a jerk. That's fine, but cloaking the rationale in some convoluted justification of necessity is just mental masturbation.

You seem to acknowledge this is a hard-core server that has become increasingly so under selective pressure of 15 years of ever-increasing douche-baggery and anti-social behavior. This is the key here and the distilled version of why the server is static in terms of attracting new players and retaining them. I started playing on this server blindly, and only because someone asked me to come play here with him. That means I had absolutely no preconceived notions or expectations of what I would experience. I also have absolutely no agenda other than playing UO and having fun. So, what you get is a fresh, unbiased opinion of the community. Take it for what it is... embrace your inner sociopath because that appears to be the target niche. Hey, I'm OK with that, better you are house-exploit killing noobs than out kicking puppies! I like to think of it in a positive light, you are doing a service to the greater community by giving an outlet to the social misfits and miscreants of the world.

I personally don't fit the mold for this server and that is obvious. However, I do like killing the type of person in question so there may yet be a future for us.

[Pirul]

Well, I don't fit the mold of this server either, then, because guess what...I don't PK or grief. Not only do I not PK, but I've dedicated most my time here to hunt PK's. I HATE this is in, and I think IT SUCKS it has not been taken out. However, I do recognize what the admin has researched about it, and respect their stance and reasoning behind leaving it in. Taking it out opens a whole can of worms regarding other "pesky" mechanics. And if THAT were to happen, we'd end up with a custom shard that eventually will not survive because you cannot please everyone all the time.

What did I do? I studied the mechanic, I practiced it, understood it, and eventually mastered it. This helped me understand how I can be safe, and how to teach others how to be safe. Just this past week I've replied to 3 PM's on IRC on how to be safe from this mechanic. Anyone wanting more information about it, or needing me to check out their place can PM me on IRC.

Also, I do agree that a large portion of our population are here because of the liberty this game provides so they can give free reign to their douchbaggery. No other game gives you SO many ways to be a dick, and has been around for so much time in order to practice it enough to master their dickery. On the other hand, this provides a much bigger challenge than any other game for anyone to protect themselves. I understand this might not be for everyone, but for those of us who are masochists, this is right up our alley.

[NewToUOSA]

Well, I don't fit the mold of this server either, then, because guess what...I don't PK or grief. Not only do I not PK, but I've dedicated most my time here to hunt PK's. I HATE this is in, and I think IT SUCKS it has not been taken out. However, I do recognize what the admin has researched about it, and respect their stance and reasoning behind leaving it in. Taking it out opens a whole can of worms regarding other "pesky" mechanics. And if THAT were to happen, we'd end up with a custom shard that eventually will not survive because you cannot please everyone all the time.

What did I do? I studied the mechanic, I practiced it, understood it, and eventually mastered it. This helped me understand how I can be safe, and how to teach others how to be safe. Just this past week I've replied to 3 PM's on IRC on how to be safe from this mechanic. Anyone wanting more information about it, or needing me to check out their place can PM me on IRC.

Also, I do agree that a large portion of our population are here because of the liberty this game provides so they can give free reign to their douchbaggery. No other game gives you SO many ways to be a dick, and has been around for so much time in order to practice it enough to master their dickery. On the other hand, this provides a much bigger challenge than any other game for anyone to protect themselves. I understand this might not be for everyone, but for those of us who are masochists, this is right up our alley.

Excellent post and most amusing as well! I know, often it is easy to bitch and complain about something but often not so easy to fix - even assuming there was a desire to do so. It doesn't appear that desire exists but as you suggest it could cause problems...

It is refreshing to hear there are some decent individuals playing on the server and that does lend some consolation.

I've was scouting for a spot for an upgrade to my (clearly unsafe) tiny cardboard box house I'm currently in and have had difficulty finding much and can only imagine how difficult it would be to find a dick-proof piece of real estate. How feasible is finding such a location? If I come back I think that would be a prerequisite... If there is such a way around this exploit I think I could be quite content with it.

[Pirul]

If you need help finding a spot for a small house, I am pretty sure I can help you find one quite fast.

[Ulfrigg]

[quote="Pirul"]Well, I don't fit the mold of this server either, then, because guess what...I don't PK or grief. Not only do I not PK, but I've dedicated most my time here to hunt PK's. I HATE this is in, and I think IT SUCKS it has not been taken out. However, I do recognize what the admin has researched about it, and respect their stance and reasoning behind leaving it in. Taking it out opens a whole can of worms regarding other "pesky" mechanics. And if THAT were to happen, we'd end up with a custom shard that eventually will not survive because you cannot please everyone all the time.quote]

Its not true they got there hand tied on this one since its an exploit same as duping, i havent been affected bye this but i still Think its bad to leave it in since at era noone used this exploit or it would have been wide spread. If they go 100% on mecanics then the gf cloth/masks should disapear. Also no prof of the transp mod have been shown?? And i dont mean that mods existed, i mean this one mod!! Since without it it dint work...

[Light Shade]

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... 5-false%5D

Granted, they fixed it after this. At some point they fixed the AoE spells, too....but then they broke them again....fixed them...broke them... Never could seem to get it right.

[Pirul]

Ulfrigg, I don't have evidence of an individual using the client mod. I am stating it was mechanically possible to do, and I have no clue on how to find things from way back then.

[corruption42]

Your confusing era experience and era accuracy; they are not the same and in fact could be considered mutually exclusive. The atmosphere of the era -- one where this was all an experience of newness for everyone, and the good will you find with the massings of 5000+ people per shard -- are one of a social experience, and cannot be re-engineered by force. On the other hand, era accuracy as it is stated here, is about mechanical era accuracy. The goal is to make things from a server standpoint work exactly, or as close as possible, to how they did back in '99 -- and from there, where the social experience is taken is one of the players.

What you're describing is a side effect of the fact that its a 15 year old game, on a shard hoping to recreate a time period from 13 years ago, in a sandbox environment with nearly total freedom. All of the more casual players moved on to greener pastures long ago, so what you're left with is largely those with a hardcore love and appreciation of UO. And for many, that hardcore love and appreciation goes hand in hand with the play styles you describe.

No, I am not confused. I understand the distinction you are highlighting but it is not relevant and the two terms you mention are clearly not mutually exclusive. Perhaps what you meant to say is that they are not mutually inclusive? In any case parse all the words you wish but I don't see any logical twists that can get you from a stated game mechanic exploit to your position. Just say it, people on the server like the exploit because it allows you to be a jerk. That's fine, but cloaking the rationale in some convoluted justification of necessity is just mental masturbation.

You seem to acknowledge this is a hard-core server that has become increasingly so under selective pressure of 15 years of ever-increasing douche-baggery and anti-social behavior. This is the key here and the distilled version of why the server is static in terms of attracting new players and retaining them. I started playing on this server blindly, and only because someone asked me to come play here with him. That means I had absolutely no preconceived notions or expectations of what I would experience. I also have absolutely no agenda other than playing UO and having fun. So, what you get is a fresh, unbiased opinion of the community. Take it for what it is... embrace your inner sociopath because that appears to be the target niche. Hey, I'm OK with that, better you are house-exploit killing noobs than out kicking puppies! I like to think of it in a positive light, you are doing a service to the greater community by giving an outlet to the social misfits and miscreants of the world.

I personally don't fit the mold for this server and that is obvious. However, I do like killing the type of person in question so there may yet be a future for us.

No, you misunderstand my definitions, and my ultimate point. I absolutely meant mutually exclusive; they absolutely do not necessitate eachother, and in fact can almost not exist together any longer. The experience you speak of stopped existing over a decade ago, and it cannot be engineered to 'feel like it did in the day.' Thats a simple fact. The game was new back then, people were still exploring, most people weren't massive experts. 15 years later, all that left is the people who took the time to thoroughly learn the games mechanics -- necessitating by definition that its a harder core group of players. Not that the grief or experience is any worse than OSI, mind you, only that the players are VERY experienced here.

None of that has absolutely anything with the freedom to be a douchebag; that is simply a part of the game that exists. If you're looking for reward with no risk, this isn't the environment for you; but you act like the only thing that thrives in such an environment is to be a douchebag and thats simply not true. This is a sandbox game, and it is what you make of it. If you convince yourself your a victim of the environment of the game, you'll always feel victimized here -- but thats not the fault of anyone on the server, its the fault of someone who was clearly not prepared for the ramifications of such freedoms in the world.

Edit to add: Your impression of this shard seems to be one of a small scale niche of douchebags that is completely static and doesn't attract new blood to this server. You're simply wrong; theres been a hefty influx of players joining the server recently, with myself and several friends included. We all came for the very mechanics you speak of, and none of us play PK's (or are really even into PvP, frankly). And I know we're far from the only ones. If you're unwilling to rough it to experience what this shard has to offer, thats not the fault of anyone on this shard but yourself.

[Ulfrigg]

No, you misunderstand my definitions, and my ultimate point. I absolutely meant mutually exclusive; they absolutely do not necessitate eachother, and in fact can almost not exist together any longer. The experience you speak of stopped existing over a decade ago, and it cannot be engineered to 'feel like it did in the day.' Thats a simple fact. The game was new back then, people were still exploring, most people weren't massive experts. 15 years later, all that left is the people who took the time to thoroughly learn the games mechanics -- necessitating by definition that its a harder core group of players. Not that the grief or experience is any worse than OSI, mind you, only that the players are VERY experienced here.

You do know back then more then 100k people played this gamed. Noone finding this bug is just unlikely. Its probebly like 99.99% chance it would be found.

[Ulfrigg]

Ulfrigg, I don't have evidence of an individual using the client mod. I am stating it was mechanically possible to do, and I have no clue on how to find things from way back then.

I hear you, that means the evidance for this mod being in havent been shown.
So we got a mechanicall bug in that probebly wasnt executable with that time mods.
If you cant make the transp bigger at era, then its impossible to kill people in big houses!!!

[corruption42]

No, you misunderstand my definitions, and my ultimate point. I absolutely meant mutually exclusive; they absolutely do not necessitate eachother, and in fact can almost not exist together any longer. The experience you speak of stopped existing over a decade ago, and it cannot be engineered to 'feel like it did in the day.' Thats a simple fact. The game was new back then, people were still exploring, most people weren't massive experts. 15 years later, all that left is the people who took the time to thoroughly learn the games mechanics -- necessitating by definition that its a harder core group of players. Not that the grief or experience is any worse than OSI, mind you, only that the players are VERY experienced here.

You do know back then more then 100k people played this gamed. Noone finding this bug is just unlikely. Its probebly like 99.99% chance it would be found.

It WAS found, and WAS known -- thats why theres posts talking about people exploiting it in-era, and why there were patches eventually -- well past our era. Just because it wasn't widely known doesn't mean it wasn't known.

I hear you, that means the evidance for this mod being in havent been shown.
So we got a mechanicall bug in that probebly wasnt executable with that time mods.
If you cant make the transp bigger at era, then its impossible to kill people in big houses!!!

Mod? What mod? You modify the configuration file for the UO client. Its been doable since the day the game went gold, and probably in beta too. By default the GUI will only let you set it to 200, but there are no such limitations when editing the config file. It was possible to do, and was done, despite the fact that you think it wasn't.