Thieves defending themselves

[tekai]

The old thief patch was rehashed recently and it made lightbulbs go off in my head.

the first charecter i made on UOSA a year ago was tekai, my dexer thief. I stoped playing him becuase for some reason, it wasnt fun.. i couldnt put my finger on it but i knew the template was valad but on this server it was such a disadvatage.

Since no ones posted since the thoughts were brought to light, I guess i'll do it =)

The way it works now : When you steal from someone, and they attack you to retailiate, they remain blue, and you cannot defend yourself.

The way it should work : When you steal from someone, and they attack you, they become grey to you, and you are able to defend yourself with no count.

Searching for a source if anyone could please lend a hand?

[Daolin]

a thief gets a count if they defend their self here??

[tekai]

yeah, if i steal your coins outside of town, and you attack me, your still blue to me. if i decide to defend myself, im going to get a murder count.

[poogoblin]

a thief gets a count if they defend their self here??

Yes, and I remember this as incorrect as well. There use to be some danger in deciding whether or not you attack a thief if you noticed them stealing, currently there is no reason not to try and attack even with a brand new created character.

My memory is foggy but some of Adam Ants adventures probably shows this being the case.

[Kael]

I thought I remembered thieves fighting back after I attacked them as well, so I decided to look into it a bit. However according to this Stratics article on 1/1/2000, if you're perma-grey and kill someone that attacks you, they can give you a murder count which will kick you from the thieves guild.

Here's the summary of perma-grey:

Perma-Grey Flag:

How you get one
Stealing from an innocent. NPC or player.
What are the symptoms?
You appear grey only to the innocents you have stolen from.
You appear blue to everyone else.
Anyone can freely attack or steal from you with impunity.
Anyone attacking you does receive an aggressor flag to you.
Things you should know

Simply being in the Thieves Guild does not give you a Perma-grey flag. But since most thieves join the Thieves Guild with the intention of stealing from innocents, they become Perma-grey pretty soon.

If someone attacks you, you will highlight grey to them (after you get hit, or move 1 square) letting them know you're a perma-grey. Anyone can steal from you. Even if they are not a member of the thieves guild. This can be useful for training purposes, but it can also be annoying at the bank.

If you are a member of the NPC Thieve's Guild, any player who successfully uses the Forensic Evaluation skill to reveal your membership in said guild may either attack or steal from you. If a player attacks you and that player dies and reports you for murder, you will be suspended from the thieves guild for the amount of time it takes for the short murder count (8 hours) to decay. While suspended you still cannot give murder counts, but cannot use the disguise kit or steal from innocents.

However as it says under "symptoms" that you appear grey to the innocents you stole from, that could mean that it wasn't a 100% successful steal, or someone with forensic evaluation sniffed you out. Then again it also says that anyone can attack you, which would include any innocent player. I'll have to try and look into this more later, Adam Ant wasn't a bad idea.

[Kael]

A bit more searching and I found the later dated UOSS article on The Thief. Unfortunately it's dated 7/13/2000, but it doesn't have much use either. All it confirms is at or before this date then there were some times you could defend yourself.

Getting Attacked
Often times aggravated victims, who lose there goods to you, will attack in an attempt to get there stuff back. Now one of two things will happen, upon being attacked the opponent will highlight grey, which means your free to attack back and kill if you got the skill too. Or they will highlight blue, if they turn up blue you cannot attack back or you will be flagged an aggressor and then be guard killed. Even out of town you want to avoid the blue attacker, for if you win the battle he can still give you a murder count and kick you out of the guild for a week. The best thing to do is run when they highlight blue, and be careful to not auto-attack and hit him, or he can report you if he dies later. Now to prevent him from dying later and giving you a count, is to simply put your valuables in the bank and commit thieving suicide, or purposely get guard killed.

Still more searching will have to be done I suppose

[poogoblin]

I thought I remembered thieves fighting back after I attacked them as well, so I decided to look into it a bit. However according to this Stratics article on 1/1/2000, if you're perma-grey and kill someone that attacks you, they can give you a murder count which will kick you from the thieves guild.

Here's the summary of perma-grey:

Perma-Grey Flag:


Anyone attacking you does receive an aggressor flag to you.

Doesn't this alone mean you shouldn't be eligible for a murder count?

[Derrick]

The following in addition to the above referenced links is the basis for the current stealing aggression flags

- UOHOC Chat Log - February, 1999

Glamdring - *Naja_Haje* Hail...Sorry if this has been asked (late ) Anything on rogues being able to use lethal force to defend themselves?Seems odd that a half dead newbie could attack me outta town and i'll get kicked out of the thieves guild because i couldn't move away fast enough...
DesignerD - OK, I assume you mean a PvP thief type, not a generic "rogue" right? A thief that is in the Thieves' Guild.
DesignerD - In this scenario (outside of town) you have a Thieves Guild member attacked. The TG guy cannot report murder, nor can he murder.
DesignerD - But since he hasn't just stolen, the attacker is flagged aggressor, and therefore cannot report EITHER. So the TGmember does not take a murder count.
DesignerD - Note that if the thief had just stolen from someone, then they could attack him & NOT be flagged aggressor, thus leading to a murder count for the thief, if he killed them. In the case of fights right after stealing, the thief *HAS* to run away or else grovel & beg forgiveness and hope the fight breaks off.

[poogoblin]

Well at least this gives us a point of origin to start searching from, because I swear that got changed between Feb99 and when I was playing

[ClowN]

i also remember seeing PVP thieves during t2a but every time i have brought this up in the past, iv been told i am wrong. there used to be a thief on chesapeake named TiCKLE or something like that who was notorious for running around stealing your shit, and then beating you to death if u tried to defend yourself. i used to always see him at brit grave yard griefing people with this tactic.

[Kaivan]

This is something that I had gone over in the past, but its been quite some time, so I'll cover it here.

When a thief steals from another player, and is not 100% successful at the theft attempt, he is performing an aggressive act. This means that when a player steals from another person, it is the same as physically double clicking an innocent player to attack them. In that situation, just like when someone attacks another player, the victim may respond by attacking the other player as long as that first player is still an aggressor to the second player. In that situation the second player will still see the first player highlight blue because he is the aggressor to the first player. This situation will continue, both in the case of stealing an in the case of attacking an innocent, until the aggressor flag wears off. The aggressor flag only wears off when no damage is done to either opponent or when neither opponent physically attacks the other opponent for 2 minutes.

The major difference between stealing and attacking a player is that once the aggressor flag wears off for attacking a person, they will return to being an innocent player. However, once the aggressor flag wears off for a thief, they still retain the perma-grey flag, which means that they will appear blue to everyone except their victim, and can be freely attacked by anyone. If a person attacks a thief who only has a perma-grey flag, that player will highlight grey to the thief because they are the aggressor to the thief, and in this situation, a thief is free to defend themselves.

In a nutshell, a thief is unable to defend themselves from their victim until their aggressor flag wears off, which ideally only lasts for two minutes. Afterwards, the thief is free to defend themselves from their victim.

[tekai]

lame system is lame =(


When was it changed Kaivan?

[Derrick]

The stealing flag system has not changed since last December

[Derrick]

I spent quite a bit of time on stealing tonight confirming all the mechanics, as there have been quite a few questions about it.

If you are completely successful, i/e you get the item and are unnoticed and the victim attacks you, he will go grey to you and you will not receive a murder count if you kill him. If you are noticed, and you do steal the item, if he attacks you he will remain blue to you as if you were the aggressor, which is the case, and if you harm him and he subsequently dies, you will be eligible for a murder count.

This is all tested as working properly, has been the stealing mechanics on UOSA since December or January, and is believed to be accurate.

There is an issue that was found, which will be fixed in next publish, that if you attack a thieves guild member who has a perma-grey flag to reveal that flag, and then break off the fight, he will appear blue to you again after two minutes, which is not correct. He should remain grey until he dies in this case.

[tekai]

I wasnt asking when it was changed on UOSA, i was asking when in 99 it was changed.

When was a failed or half successful steal considered an agressive action.