Getting killed in the middle of a tower?

[Wonko the Sane]

I was killed in the center of Jhelom bank AFK macroing hiding along with about 5 other players one morning, only God knows how. I came back in time to see all our corpses and five different bodies representing our killer.

Was your killer "The Bane of AFKs"?

Getting killed while AFK at a bank is not something that should surprise you, it should even be expected, at least if you have anything of value on you.

[Telamon]

If someone found a bug with razor that allowed you to break into homes, it worked on the demo and OSI... that would also be mechanical accuracy.

This not only wasn't intended by the game developers... but noone freakin knew about it until 2012 and it requires client hacking or a third party program to accomplish.

Using tables to bump up into the wings of towers is technically era and mechanically accurate, yet it was removed.

This actually isn't true. The code would check for a valid surface to place you on that was above or below your location within a certain number of Z (~20 Z). This stopped players from being able to move up or down large distances in this way. Also, assuming this did work and you weren't a friend, you would be kicked out of the house anyway.

On another note, I've had very little time to speak with Derrick as he has been busy with some stuff at home. I don't really know whether he will take any action on this particular issue, but it should be noted that this particular technique relied on the assistance of a third party program with the capability to target a relative location. Given that, and the fact that the only legal third party program didn't actually have a target relative feature until September 2, 2000, any use of this technique during T2A would have required the use of an illegal program.

This can easily, and I mean super easily be accomplished without razor. You just cannot target as far without razor or modifying the multi.mul file to remove visual obstructions. But I can easily target 2-3 spaces into a keep/castle/tower to set my internal last target. Step back from the wall 1 space. Cast Chain Lightning and then hit my last target button.

This bug has nothing to do with relative location targeting, and everything to do with angular line of sight (it seems)

[Kaivan]

This can easily, and I mean super easily be accomplished without razor. You just cannot target as far without razor or modifying the multi.mul file to remove visual obstructions. But I can easily target 2-3 spaces into a keep/castle/tower to set my internal last target. Step back from the wall 1 space. Cast Chain Lightning and then hit my last target button.

This bug has nothing to do with relative location targeting, and everything to do with angular line of sight (it seems)

One might expect it to work by using circle of transparency and targeting under the foundation of the house, however this doesn't work at any distance on live OSI servers. On the other hand, targeting with relative location works every time, provided the targeted location is within 4 tiles of the foundation of the house (this points to other differences between live OSI code and what is currently on UOSA, and these differences need to be checked against the UOSA tutorial server where we can connect with razor and actually test using relative location).

[Telamon]

This can easily, and I mean super easily be accomplished without razor. You just cannot target as far without razor or modifying the multi.mul file to remove visual obstructions. But I can easily target 2-3 spaces into a keep/castle/tower to set my internal last target. Step back from the wall 1 space. Cast Chain Lightning and then hit my last target button.

This bug has nothing to do with relative location targeting, and everything to do with angular line of sight (it seems)

One might expect it to work by using circle of transparency and targeting under the foundation of the house, however this doesn't work at any distance on live OSI servers. On the other hand, targeting with relative location works every time, provided the targeted location is within 4 tiles of the foundation of the house (this points to other differences between live OSI code and what is currently on UOSA, and these differences need to be checked against the UOSA tutorial server where we can connect with razor and actually test using relative location).

The distance away from the house that allows for targeting seems directly related to how far under the house you are trying to target (on UOSA). For instance a few minutes ago I tested, (using CoT and Last Target), a target 2 spaces into a house, while standing 2 spaces from the house. This would not work from 3 or 4 spaces from the house (Most of the time, see below).

To target father under the house, I need to get a target deeper into the house, and stand farther from the house.

Modified clients files were quite common in 1999, I used one with no house walls all the time. So I can imagine if this was possible, you could easily do it (without razor) by simply removing the items blocking your view under the house.

(Not speaking to era accuracy, just to how this is currently working on UOSA)

I have not tested super extensively but the logic seems to be
1-2 spaces under a house, stand 2 spaces away
3-4 spaces under a house, stand 3 spaces away
5-6 spaces under a house, stand 4 spaces away

I've tried some odd angles, and been able to get mixed results, but in a straight line I have found the above attempts to work reliably. In theory if you found some uneven ground near the house, you could get mixed results when targeting. This is all assumed that everything is happening on 0 z axis.

Anywho, this has been beat to death, on to more interesting things.

TL:DR : Live in a small house, or dont macro. Otherwise Malice and co will house kill you.

RPV Video of Malice using this exploit to kill a friend of mine in the center of a keep. House Kill Bug/Exploit

[Kaivan]

This is indicative of differences in our code from that on live OSI servers, where there is a strict 4 tile limit for targeting under a house at any time, regardless of the distance from the house. We need to cross reference this with the UOSA Tutorial server, which allows us to interact with the demo engine while using a modern client and razor to perform these same checks.

Regarding modified clients and client files, it is certainly possible that such modified clients existed in-era, however we don't have any concrete proof of that, nor does its existence justify the action (note: any effective hack that would allow this would require that the player to modify tile data that is useful in its normal form, causing a lot of practical problems in order to achieve this).

[theuodealer]

I was killed in the center of Jhelom bank AFK macroing hiding along with about 5 other players one morning, only God knows how. I came back in time to see all our corpses and five different bodies representing our killer.

Was your killer "The Bane of AFKs"?

Getting killed while AFK at a bank is not something that should surprise you, it should even be expected, at least if you have anything of value on you.

No, his name was Checkmate. The last corpse of his on the screen was red. It did surprise me. Judging by the looks of the other chars around mine, I'm pretty sure we were all noob startups working easy skills. Nothing of value. This also never happened to me on OSI. I was accosted by thieves at banks, never town-killed. I also have no clue how it happened. I only know that he repeatedly died just outside the front door of the bank, well in guard zone, while somehow causing area effect damage to everyone in the bank.

[Kander]

So should I go ahead and move all my shit into a small?

Looks like you might have to move back to Moonglow.

[Vhyx]

No, his name was Checkmate. The last corpse of his on the screen was red. It did surprise me. Judging by the looks of the other chars around mine, I'm pretty sure we were all noob startups working easy skills. Nothing of value. This also never happened to me on OSI. I was accosted by thieves at banks, never town-killed. I also have no clue how it happened. I only know that he repeatedly died just outside the front door of the bank, well in guard zone, while somehow causing area effect damage to everyone in the bank.

This is a little off topic to the thread, but let me help you with this..

Explosion potions are used extensively by town killers. Good way to kill a whole cluster of afk players.

Remember that afk macroing was not allowed on the OSI servers. Was a good way to get your account in trouble if caught. So, there weren't a bunch of macroing characters standing around at banks. Plus, due to the populations on the production shards, townkilling was actually rather difficult because people were paying attention. They wouldn't just stand there to get explo potioned to death, unless they had stepped away from the keyboard a moment. Also, people were very quick to call guards at the first instance of a town attack. Basically, it was a self regulating thing so it never became a problem.

Here on UOSA, several of the banks and towns are infested with AFK macroers. Even if the line "guards" is included in the macro it won't stop someone from purple potion flinging or poisoning. Some players won't call guards if they see bank macroers being killed, so you don't always have other players watching your back for you. (I don't. I find afk macroers at banks to be an eye sore)

If you're doing a macro that doesn't require the use of a restock agent, such as HIDING... don't do it at the freaking bank. There are a lot of places where you can macro in town and rarely, if ever, get messed with. Doing it at any bank in any of the commonly used towns is asking to have a purple potion shoved down your throat.

/end off topic new player assistance in a thread about the exploiting of line of sight enabling people to be killed in fortress homes

[Matty]

This is indicative of differences in our code from that on live OSI servers, where there is a strict 4 tile limit for targeting under a house at any time, regardless of the distance from the house. We need to cross reference this with the UOSA Tutorial server, which allows us to interact with the demo engine while using a modern client and razor to perform these same checks.

Regarding modified clients and client files, it is certainly possible that such modified clients existed in-era, however we don't have any concrete proof of that, nor does its existence justify the action (note: any effective hack that would allow this would require that the player to modify tile data that is useful in its normal form, causing a lot of practical problems in order to achieve this).

does this mean something is being done about it?

[Kaivan]

I can't answer that. I haven't been able to speak with Derrick in the last few days about the issue.

[theuodealer]

Vhyx - thank you

On topic - forgive a dumb new guy but everyone keep saying use a small house for safety until this is resolved........... can't chain lightning and meteor swarm be cast through the window of a small?

[nightshark]

Vhyx - thank you

On topic - forgive a dumb new guy but everyone keep saying use a small house for safety until this is resolved........... can't chain lightning and meteor swarm be cast through the window of a small?

No. You can only be hurt with earthquake. There's no foolproof answer to not getting killed if you're macroing magery on yourself for resist gains in a small, but a health point check around your targeting is your best option. Low chance someone will take the time of day to kill you that way.

[kill drizitz]

if its accurate keep it. pretty wild but interesting imo. also, in the middle of a small, if you heal after every spell, chances of you dying to an EQ is pretty low. IF HITS <99 use bandaid target self. done.

[nightshark]

if its accurate keep it. pretty wild but interesting imo. also, in the middle of a small, if you heal after every spell, chances of you dying to an EQ is pretty low. IF HITS <99 use bandaid target self. done.

make 2 keys right next to each other

1=allnames
2=eq scroll

hold down your 1 key
wait until you see (frozen)
hit your 2 key

doing this with 1 person = a chance you will die
doing this with 2 people = dead.

if the macroer tries to be tricky and insert a wait time on target, use a stopwatch. the timing works for both ebolt and flamestrike because

cast time on ebolt = 1.75s
cast time on fs = 2s
damage delay = 1s
eq = 2.25s

with a reaction time of less than .5s on ebolt, the earthquake will hit after targeting but before spell damage is applied.
with a reaction time of less than .75s on flamestrike, ditto.

stat reds = don't even bother trying to macro your skills back up. malice will be outside your house EQing in a matter of hours. just burn counts by idling 24/7 and play the game like it was intended.

[Kaivan]

After some extensive research on the UO:98 project (a fully functional version of the demo), and on live OSI servers, I can confirm that the LoS issue is identical on both live servers and on UO:98. When targeting under a house such as a tower, small tower, keep, or castle (or any structure with a stone base), it is possible to target under the house. The distance that you can target is identical on both sets of servers, with an increased (up to a point) distance where you can target under the house as you back up.

Whether this will be changed or not is still up to Derrick, but from an accuracy perspective, this is a proper mechanic for the era.