The E-bolt and Halberd Theory

[Orsi]

discuss.

PS
Kaivan, Derrick, etc. I'm requesting you lock this thread the minute any personal insults start getting thrown.

[Faust]

You are still missing the simple fact that it COULD not be based off of wrestling... You had to cycle a weapon to start the process. When someone RUNS up to you and makes you wrestle your timer begins immediately... This means that you can sit there and wait that small wrestling timer out and swing again. This was not the way it worked during the era.

Wrestling Basis: 2.5 Timer
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2.5 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle 2.5 seconds
wait 2.5 seconds, equip hally

Non-Wrestling Basis: 2s Disarm Delay
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle - 3.5 seconds
wait - 3.5 seconds, equip hally <-- Difference ONE second

Do you not understand the difference? You CLEARLY get a one second head start when someone makes you wrestle compared to the way it actually worked... The point in making someone wrestle was to waste their cycle... and get a jump start on your own. However, if you RUN up and WASTE your opponents weapon cycle their cycle starts IMMEDIATELY being based on wrestling... This means that you have to get away from your opponent slowing your cycle down greatly and by the time you're about to finish your cycle your opponents is ready and he's already on top of you... Again, the point was to WASTE their cycle and get a JUMP on your own. This makes the counter tactic making your opponent wrestle utterly USELESS as previously stated.

By using the correct system you would have to wait an extra 1 second "or" recycle your weapon, but by the time either of those two scenarios elapsed your cycle will be well on its way to being finished. Removing the only counter tactic for a hally that can be cycled so quickly hurts PVP horribly... The pvp comes down to redundant hits on WHO can dish out the highest hally hit, not who can control the situation the best between using both functions. What else do you expect to happen when the counter tactic is no longer a viable option... It comes down to who can cycle their weapons the best and who dishes out the most damage. In other words the PVP is simply ruined and completely luck based.

This is WHY wrestling was not the cause for this feature... Wrestling simply does not re-create this feature and it's quite obvious when you actually get down to experiencing it. Also, the inconsistancies with the "feel" or "experience" isn't even including the inconsistancies with changing the wrestling timer that is completely inaccurate to the era in itself...

I just don't know why this concept is so hard for some people to understand it...

What is there that hasn't already been discussed in numerous other threads?

[Finesse]

exactly i think its been proven beyond any doubt that the theory is correct.

when the next set of changes go into test the pvp is going to be so ballanced its rediculas.

macing is evened out because it destroys stamina making people hit slower
the spell casting has given dexers an important edge
dueling and group pvp have both been massively improved.

[Faust]

I've got to look at what you are saying but keep in mind, When you Unequip a weapon you Equip wresteling and thus the previous timer is canceled and the wrestling timer begins.

If you equip before that timer is done... then the timer is canceled and you restart with the new weapon.

I've got to prepare something for transplant, i'll be back to think about your scenario.

I know how it works very well... I have already developed scripts that utilized this same function... Again, this was LIVE on UOSA before the disarm delay was implemented to re-create the actual mechanic.

Wrestling only re-creates this feature half assed and very incorrectly.

Here are the two different systems ONCE more...

Wrestling Basis: 2.5 Timer
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2.5 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle 2.5 seconds
wait 2.5 seconds, equip hally <-- Sit, wait, and no recycle immediately after wrestling...

Non-Wrestling Basis: 2s Disarm Delay
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle - 3.5 seconds
wait - 3.5 seconds, equip hally <-- Difference between the two.

The difference between the two is very CLEAR in the last function for both. The correct system requires you to either WAIT a second longer OR arm/disarm restarting the process which takes some time to do. However, if it's solely based on wrestling you aren't required to do NOTHING but sit there until the wrestling timer elapses in 2.5 seconds instead of 3.5 seconds... This means that when someone RUNS up to make you wrestle they are doing absolutely NOTHING but hurting themselves since it's literally impossible to get another cycle off before your opponent... This WAS not the way that it worked when making your opponent counter punch to waste his weapon cycle...

The tactic for countering weapon cycles is easy to understand....

Opponent begins casting ebolt
You run up and make him wrestle resetting his swing
You run back a couple steps, unequip weapon for cycle

However, this is not possible with wrestling if your opponent isn't an idiot...

Wresting Basis : 2.5 Timer
Opponent begins casting ebolt
You run up and make him wrestle resetting his swing
Opponents weapon cycle begins immediately since it's based on wrestling...
You run back a couple steps, unequip weapon for cycle(remember running also pauses your weapon delay)
Your opponets already had a head start cycling his weapon and he is on top of you wasting your cycle hitting you with a hally...

Disarm Delay Basis: 2s Delay
Opponent begins casting ebolt
You run up and make him wrestle resetting his swing
Opponents wrestling delay is 3.5s being 1.5s longer than a weapon cycle.
Opponent can either wait that delay or spend time resetting the cycle by arming/disarming again.
You run back a couple steps, unequip weapon for cycle(remember running also pauses your weapon delay)
You will have the head start on your opponet in either situation with this system since his cycle doesn't start immediately when making him wrestle...

This is not hard to understand at all people...

[Kaivan]

Just to add the information that I had provided earlier on, the wrestling base speed on the demo is 25.

Aside from that, I'll be watching this thread. Keep it constructive.

[Kraarug]

You are still missing the simple fact that it COULD not be based off of wrestling... You had to cycle a weapon to start the process. When someone RUNS up to you and makes you wrestle your timer begins immediately... This means that you can sit there and wait that small wrestling timer out and swing again. This was not the way it worked during the era.

Wrestling Basis: 2.5 Timer
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2.5 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle 2.5 seconds
wait 2.5 seconds, equip hally

Non-Wrestling Basis: 2s Disarm Delay
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle - 3.5 seconds
wait - 3.5 seconds, equip hally <-- Difference ONE second

Do you not understand the difference? You CLEARLY get a one second head start when someone makes you wrestle compared to the way it actually worked... The point in making someone wrestle was to waste their cycle... and get a jump start on your own. However, if you RUN up and WASTE your opponents weapon cycle their cycle starts IMMEDIATELY being based on wrestling... This means that you have to get away from your opponent slowing your cycle down greatly and by the time you're about to finish your cycle your opponents is ready and he's already on top of you... Again, the point was to WASTE their cycle and get a JUMP on your own. This makes the counter tactic making your opponent wrestle utterly USELESS as previously stated.

By using the correct system you would have to wait an extra 1 second "or" recycle your weapon, but by the time either of those two scenarios elapsed your cycle will be well on its way to being finished. Removing the only counter tactic for a hally that can be cycled so quickly hurts PVP horribly... The pvp comes down to redundant hits on WHO can dish out the highest hally hit, not who can control the situation the best between using both functions. What else do you expect to happen when the counter tactic is no longer a viable option... It comes down to who can cycle their weapons the best and who dishes out the most damage. In other words the PVP is simply ruined and completely luck based.

This is WHY wrestling was not the cause for this feature...

I don't know why it's so hard for anyone to understand this.

I've got to look at what you are saying but keep in mind, When you Unequip a weapon you Equip wresteling and thus the previous timer is canceled and the wrestling timer begins.

If you equip before that timer is done... then the timer is canceled and you restart with the new weapon.

I've got to prepare something for transplant, i'll be back to think about your scenario.

Wrestling Basis: 25 Stamina, 50 Speed = 2.5 Timer
hally swing - start 5 second hally timer (25 Stamina, 25 Speed)
unequip - STOP 5 second hally timer, start 2.5 second wrestling timer.
...

[Apok]

I know there is many threads on this subject.

But after eading this one i do need clarification at this moment.

with this new system, If i want to distrup my enemys hally swing can i run up and wrestle making him loose his insta?

I mean thats the way it always was..

[Faust]

Kaivan,

I don't see how wrestling could have a base speed of 25... That is the same speed that a hally uses.

Weapon Speed : 25
100 Dex: 15000 / ( 100 + 100 ) * 25 = 3.0 Delay
25 Dex: 15000 / ( 25 + 100 ) * 25 = 4.8 Delay

I lost some of my testing data when my machine crashed that had the demo and data from testing results. This resulted in the loss of my video with wrestling test using a base of low 20ish dex. The 100 dex video luckily is on my main PC from sending it to Derrick... I will post screenshots of the video that shows you the frame process from the delay.

The result of the 100 dex video resulted in a delay roughly on average resulted in between a "2.0 - 2.5" delay... That is almost a full second longer than a base speed of 25 for wrestling.

If you take the RunUO default base speed it produces these results...

Weapon Speed : 35
15000 / ( 100 + 100 ) * 35 = 2.1
15000 / ( 25 + 100 ) * 35 = 3.4

If you applied these results to a timer based around ticks it would be 2.25s and 3.5s for the end result of the timer... The results produced using the RunUO default speed of 35 for wrestling gets pretty much precise results that the demo dishes out...

PS
Apok, yes you can still waste your opponents swing by making them wrestle at the moment. However, if insta hit refreshes, weapon cycles, or fast swing(whatever you want to call it) is changed to wrestling it will be utterly useless to make someone wrestle if they're smart. So hope that this doesn't change... or the system will be completely out of whack and ruined.

[Kraarug]

Wresting Basis : 2.5 Timer
Opponent begins casting ebolt
You run up and make him wrestle resetting his swing
Opponents weapon cycle begins immediately since it's based on wrestling...
You run back a couple steps, unequip weapon for cycle(remember running also pauses your weapon delay)
Your opponets already had a head start cycling his weapon and he is on top of you wasting your cycle hitting you with a hally...

Disarm Delay Basis: 2s Delay
Opponent begins casting ebolt
You run up and make him wrestle resetting his swing
Opponents wrestling delay is 3.5s being 1.5s longer than a weapon cycle.
Opponent can either wait that delay or spend time resetting the cycle by arming/disarming again.
You run back a couple steps, unequip weapon for cycle(remember running also pauses your weapon delay)
You will have the head start on your opponet in either situation with this system since his cycle doesn't start immediately when making him wrestle...

Wouldn't your oppent only be able make you punch IF his timer is ready? And that's a .5 second window of opportunity.

That's hardly and issue considering you get a spell IN PLUS advanced the biggest weapon by over 2 seconds.

If so, even if you charged your oppent he wouldn't punch till the timer cooled down.

In scenario #1 it would seem that a tactic that depended only on trading hally whacks and ebolts would not be good. I can hardly see why that would be bad.

[Apok]

PS
Apok, yes you can still waste your opponents swing by making them wrestle at the moment. However, if insta hit refreshes, weapon cycles, or fast swing(whatever you want to call it) is changed to wrestling it will be utterly useless to make someone wrestle if they're smart. So hope that this doesn't change... or the system will be completely out of whack and ruined.

TY faust,

[Faust]

Wouldn't your oppent only be able make you punch IF his timer is ready? And that's a .5 second window of opportunity.

That's hardly and issue considering you get a spell IN PLUS advanced the biggest weapon by over 2 seconds.

What exactly do you mean by that?

Your opponent makes you punch by forcing you to auto defend... He doesn't have to be ready for a swing for you to be able to punch. Again, you run up to someone towards the end of their cycle making them swing... This forces them to either ONE wait longer than a cycle or TWO re-attempt a weapon cycle by rearming and disarming. This is where you fall back to pull off your own weapon cycle. The system that you are proposing to revert back to does not require ANYTHING but sitting there after punching... This ultimately creates a stalemate that makes PVP beyond horrible. The inconsistancies with the way that system works based on wrestling is wrong, along with the many inconsistancies that require the addition of inaccurate game mechanics. Overall, it's hurting the server instead of helping by half assing a great feature of the era while at the same time making other multiple features inaccurate...

The disarm delay is accurate... It requires no changes to ANY other game mechanic to reproduce weapon cycles. It is simply a down right perfect recreation of the feature without any flaws minus the advance technology that allows the static delay to be exploited(if the static delay existed in the first place)... This is why my proposal to shift the delay based on your stamina from 2.0 - 2.5 seconds would solve this problem in a split second.

[Kaivan]

Kaivan,

I don't see how wrestling could have a base speed of 25... That is the same speed that a hally uses.

Weapon Speed : 25
100 Dex: 15000 / ( 100 + 100 ) * 25 = 3.0 Delay
25 Dex: 15000 / ( 25 + 100 ) * 25 = 4.8 Delay

I lost some of my testing data when my machine crashed that had the demo and data from testing results. This resulted in the loss of my video with wrestling test using a base of low 20ish dex. The 100 dex video luckily is on my main PC from sending it to Derrick... I will post screenshots of the video that shows you the frame process from the delay.

The result of the 100 dex video resulted in a delay roughly on average resulted in between a "2.0 - 2.5" delay... That is almost a full second longer than a base speed of 25 for wrestling.

If you take the RunUO default base speed it produces these results...

Weapon Speed : 35
15000 / ( 100 + 100 ) * 35 = 2.1
15000 / ( 25 + 100 ) * 35 = 3.4

If you applied these results to a timer based around ticks it would be 2.25s and 3.5s for the end result of the timer... The results produced using the RunUO default speed of 35 for wrestling gets pretty much precise results that the demo dishes out...

PS
Apok, yes you can still waste your opponents swing by making them wrestle at the moment. However, if insta hit refreshes, weapon cycles, or fast swing(whatever you want to call it) is changed to wrestling it will be utterly useless to make someone wrestle if they're smart. So hope that this doesn't change... or the system will be completely out of whack and ruined.

The demo uses the old equation that was based off of dexterity. The Prima guide records that formula as:

10000 / (dexterity + 100) * weapon speed

Given that equation, the resulting times would be:

10000 / (25 + 100) * 25 = 3.2
10000 / (100 + 100) * 25 = 2

Those times closely mimic the RunUO default timer at 35 base speed. However, it is important to note that there is no authoritative source of the base speed for wrestling during T2A or even UOR. Given that circumstance, the only source for the speed that the RunUO team had at its disposal was the demo speed. Reflecting that speed using the stamina based system would be best accomplished using a base speed of 35 (not accounting for ticks of course). The major problem with that line of thinking is that we cannot assume that OSI did exactly what the RunUO team did. If we take the halberd as an example, the delay for the halberd was increased by 50% (3.2 seconds at 25 dexterity to 4.8 seconds at 25 stamina) when the system was shifted from the dexterity to the stamina based system. Given that fact, it is distinctly possible that the effective speed for wrestling was changed as well, which would mean that the speed the speed that is recorded in the RunUO would not be accurate.

P.S. On looking at the speeds that existed during the dexterity time period and the speeds that existed during the stamina time period, the resulting weapon speeds themselves were all markedly slower under the stamina system than they were during the dexterity period. Given that pattern, it stands to reason that the wrestling delay remained at or near the weapon speed it had on the demo and was not increased to 35 as is reflected in the RunUO default values.

[Faust]

P.S. On looking at the speeds that existed during the dexterity time period and the speeds that existed during the stamina time period, the resulting weapon speeds themselves were all markedly slower under the stamina system than they were during the dexterity period. Given that pattern, it stands to reason that the wrestling delay remained at or near the weapon speed it had on the demo and was not increased to 35 as is reflected in the RunUO default values.

Does anything else really need be said revolving the theory around wrestling after Kaivan's input?

If anything wrestling should be slowed down(not faster like proposed) now based on the end results.

This leaves only the disarm delay to reproduce this feature unless someone else can actually come up with a more viable way to reproduce it that makes more sense with some evidence to back it up...

PS
Wrestling should be changed to a speed of 25 based on the only known reference that we have for it now...

[Orsi]

I think the only plan is do trial and error. Set up a few testing rounds and fiddle with multiple ideas.

[Faust]

I have not heard one idea or theory yet...