This whole Era Accurate Argument

[Van Raily]

events are a policy and not a mechanical aspect of the game

events cant be accurate or inaccurate, they are a decision of the staff team to hold these events, just as it was the decision of OSI to hold the events that they, from time to time, held.

how often they are held is entirely up to the staff, and also, is not a "mechanical" inaccuracy..

That came out exactly as I expected: very legal.

But these "games" are not events. Events are held by players or staff, unique occurrences like the Biate or Iolo's escort; these tournaments are not "events".

These are (for the most part) routine instances, where you stand in line and wait your turn because it is standard part of the game, no different than quests or champions or anything else post-T2A. Instances are something I would go so far as to say is the ultimate downfall in MMOs as I know it and can be seen in many of the "Great Enemies" in the MMO genre, WoW being one of many among them, although that is leading into another topic altogether.

[Kaivan]

What about things that were always a part of UO that are now rares? Foods, barrels, things that people have known about for over two years and not a word?

If you're referring to things such as semi-rares and water barrels, these have been discussed and are known items, and they have either been implemented or are something we know about and do intend to have on UOSA. However, the prioritization of what we do on UOSA puts these issues on the back burner to many of the core changes that are done to improve the server. Just because something isn't on the server doesn't mean that we don't intend to add it.

What about the multi-clienting? Sure, you could multi-client, but who did you (or anyone else for that matter) know that had more than one account and not because of other members of the family needing more than one character?

This is an issue that is not so easily solved as simply flipping a switch and saying 1 account per IP and providing exemptions for those that request them. People's IPs rotate all the time, and quite frankly, the upkeep of a system designed around that approach would take a significant amount of our time, which is a limited resource. On the flip side, we can't justify everyone having an unlimited amount of accounts connected from a single IP just because it could be done on OSI. Without The limiting factor that was present on OSI - the money you had to pay - this would open the door to rampant abuse which would almost solely be produced by the ability to run multiple clients on a single machine (a function which we can't control). Given those two extremes, which demand entirely different viewpoints, we have chosen a middle ground that we believe to be reasonable in light of the inability to appropriately execute the other options. Now, is it possible that things may change in the future? Yes. Will it happen for sure? No one knows. But, until that day comes and some new system, whatever it turns out to be, is introduced, we must continue to operate under this system.

Or tree hacks, which from what I've gathered are not wanted to be seen on the forums, but are not a bannable offense otherwise. Or the automated events. Why not get rid of those if we're holding on so tight to "era accuracy"?

Tree hacks are an entirely client side modification and we have no control over those kinds of modifications. As for events, I agree that they are inaccurate and I have always been a proponent of their removal. In my eyes, it is one significant thing that needs to be put back in to the real world because it should face the same risk versus reward factors that all other playstyles face. In an event arena that is cut off from the rest of the world, that risk is mitigated without the player taking any equal action to prevent that risk. It is my sincere hope that as UOSA evolves, we will get to a point where these types of events are removed alltogether because I see it as the last standing major inaccuracy for the server.

These things were not "in era", at least not on Catskills. Granted I was 14 in '99 and more interested in my female counterparts', well... counterparts, though I still think my memory serves me well after all these years.

I agree that these things were not in era, (namely multi-clienting and tree hack). However, some of these changes are realities of freeservers (multi-clienting), and some of these things are outside of our control (tree hack), and in both situations, these are things that came into existence, for the most part, well into or after UOR.

As for slippery slopes, it is a "BS argument", unless you're admitting that you (whoever "you" may be, be you dev, player, or critic/boardwarrior) are as imbecilic as the others who have come before you and believe you (again, whoever "you" may be) would screw it up just as bad if not worse than OSI or UOGamers, or whoever else.

In this I suppose that we'll have to agree that it's a matter of perspective. What is "good" for a server is purely subjective and when that point of view become a major component of your decisions, it takes away from that which makes the era unique.

[Manfromx]

In this I suppose that we'll have to agree that it's a matter of perspective. What is "good" for a server is purely subjective and when that point of view become a major component of your decisions, it takes away from that which makes the era unique.

That's all I needed to hear. Maybe sticking T2A with nothing new will not be "good" in the long term. I'm happy to be wrong on that point however.

I can understand wanting to remain pure for the purists. I just don't count myself in those ranks.

Before this thread dies is there a statement about this anywhere that is stickied? I know the mission statement is to provide the most authentic T2A experience but that really is different things to different people. It'll never be as I remember it. Not exactly, not ever. So it may as well be familiar yet have a future instead of rooted in the past in my mind. Just like the original T2A had a future. It's just too bad none of us liked that one lol.

Anyways, thanks for the debate. I see now that at least the forum regulars are mostly against anything that will change the game.

Good to know and I'll play here until something better comes (though you guys have set the bar high, this is professional quality).

[Van Raily]

While they are realities, there can still be a firm stance on their inclusion. Hard to post pics (or it didn't happen) in a forum about how leet your pvp skeelz are when your screens show stumps instead of trees. Granted you take them down anyhow, but if they couldn't be posted in the first place on pain of being banned? It requires only a little effort to try, being that catching people is difficult and when it is easy to do it, well, it requires little more than just banning them 'cause they were stupid enough to prove it for you.

And because people have 15 macroed characters now, you cannot get rid of those accounts. Doing so will be as catastrophic to this shard as getting rid of the daily tournies and other instances.

Also, MyT2A isn't era-accurate, either; it's well organized, lacks bugs (or has few at all), and is extremely customizable, a far cry from the train wreck that was (and is) MyUO. I enjoy it immensely, but it's "NEA".

[Sandro]

good post Kaivan

[Pat]

i thought tree hacks were around back then... i remember a lot of mods and "hacks" from way back...

[Pac]

Weren't there examples just above of how this server has picked and chosen from different time periods outside of Nov99?

As for the slippery slope argument I'm still not buying it. I'm not saying that "No, they will never ever go down that slippery slope". I'm just saying it's not a foregone conclusion like some people think it is.

Yes they could change things. I guess then they could "get addicted" to it and keep changing until your house is pink and you can't PvP anymore.

They could also like I've said multiple times now. draw up a list of all important aspects of T2A (is limited housing options REALLY an important aspect of T2A??)(is cutting bandages one by one??). Once they've done that they can they make those items on their list "holy". Promising never to change those aspects. While improving tedious or bland areas.

You guys.... it's just black and white with you. Either it stays pure and it's awesome because you're willing to put up with the flaws. Or you change one thing and in the end you're a samurai ninja. Come on... There are thousands of levels between T2A purity and OSI's vision of modern UO.

Wow, almost 20 minutes on this shard now and you're ranting even harder. UOGamers was made with people like you in mind, maybe the 12 or 13 people left playing there will be more agreeable.

[Donk]

We can debate back and forth about the pros and cons of strict T2A accuracy, but the simple fact is that it is one of the main selling points of this shard. It is as integral to Second Age as other functionality is to other shards. I don't want to say "like it or GTFO" but it really is one of the defining features that differentiates this shard from every other "T2A" shard with whatever additions the community wants. That's why the forum regulars are so adamantly against changing the strict T2A adherence, in many cases it's the reason they're a regular here in the first place. You might as well find a shard that defines its identity around being up to date with current OSI and ask "Hey guys should we get rid of item insurance?"

[nightshark]

Weren't there examples just above of how this server has picked and chosen from different time periods outside of Nov99?

As for the slippery slope argument I'm still not buying it. I'm not saying that "No, they will never ever go down that slippery slope". I'm just saying it's not a foregone conclusion like some people think it is.

Yes they could change things. I guess then they could "get addicted" to it and keep changing until your house is pink and you can't PvP anymore.

They could also like I've said multiple times now. draw up a list of all important aspects of T2A (is limited housing options REALLY an important aspect of T2A??)(is cutting bandages one by one??). Once they've done that they can they make those items on their list "holy". Promising never to change those aspects. While improving tedious or bland areas.

You guys.... it's just black and white with you. Either it stays pure and it's awesome because you're willing to put up with the flaws. Or you change one thing and in the end you're a samurai ninja. Come on... There are thousands of levels between T2A purity and OSI's vision of modern UO.

Wow, almost 20 minutes on this shard now and you're ranting even harder. UOGamers was made with people like you in mind, maybe the 12 or 13 people left playing there will be more agreeable.

Does neon hued cloth REALLY make a difference to gameplay?

Let us ride teh beetles IMO, they make no difference to gameplay, it's just extra content.

For those who've read this epic thread:
Bring in shackles!

[uofuntime]

^ You can med both active and passively through leather. Even some studded.
edit: alright, got it.

We can debate back and forth about the pros and cons of strict T2A accuracy, but the simple fact is that it is one of the main selling points of this shard. It is as integral to Second Age as other functionality is to other shards. I don't want to say "like it or GTFO" but it really is one of the defining features that differentiates this shard from every other "T2A" shard with whatever additions the community wants. That's why the forum regulars are so adamantly against changing the strict T2A adherence, in many cases it's the reason they're a regular here in the first place. You might as well find a shard that defines its identity around being up to date with current OSI and ask "Hey guys should we get rid of item insurance?"

I agree with this, even though secretly I want the natural hue leather dye tub (valorite, verite, agapite, etc colors) and the Renaissance houses.

[nightshark]

You can med both active and passively through leather. Even some studded.

Yeah, I know that, but during UO:R it didn't slow down your med. I was being sarcastic, but deleted it from the post anyway because I realised sarcasm doesn't convey that great over the interwebs

[Manfromx]

Wow, almost 20 minutes on this shard now and you're ranting even harder. UOGamers was made with people like you in mind, maybe the 12 or 13 people left playing there will be more agreeable.

I just read up on UOGamers and no you're wrong. That's not what I want. Though I guess it's hard to be right when you make snap judgments on people you don't know.

All I've said is that the common view here (forums) is either you change nothing or you change everything. I'm saying the truth is there is a lot more granularity to it. I've accepted that the devs here want to stay as close as possible to T2A. Which means new houses, less tedium and housing containers that are more useful won't be coming anytime. I'll be staying because this is the best shard I've seen out there.

I'm just trying to cut the BS outta the argument. The idea that we don't have new stuff in this server is because the devs are incompetent and couldn't add things without knowing when to quit is silly. The reason we don't have new stuff is because they want this to be a firm recreation of the time frame in question.

It's that simple.

Does neon hued cloth REALLY make a difference to gameplay?

Let us ride teh beetles IMO, they make no difference to gameplay, it's just extra content.

Again a weak argument. Have I advocated Rideable Beetles and neon colours? Is anyone in this community clamoring for it? Why when I say "New House Types" does everyone hear something entirely ridiculous that OSI dreamed up. That path happened once you guys. It's not like it's destiny that it happens anytime you change the code. Yes new housing would make things look nicer and be something new to work towards. Yes little things like that impact gameplay for certain types of players. Unless you're honestly saying to add anything because it's all choice. Somehow I think it's sarcastic though.

I can just see it now. Derrick says he's adding the UO : R housing types and then the patch notes for the following version are :

Sorry for all the bugs introduced in the last version. It seems activating those houses also activated Samurai's and Hobbits. Rather than take out the houses and return the shard to normal we'll be adding Pink Dragons that shoot cure instead of flame for any girls playing. It seems instahit is gone as a result of this bug but we can't remember if anyone liked it so we'll leave it out for now. Also we've reopened trammel and feluccia because after the Pink Dragons why not! You know we just can't help ourselves. Feature creep and slippery slopes and all.

[Rendar]

This is an issue that is not so easily solved as simply flipping a switch and saying 1 account per IP and providing exemptions for those that request them. People's IPs rotate all the time, and quite frankly, the upkeep of a system designed around that approach would take a significant amount of our time, which is a limited resource. On the flip side, we can't justify everyone having an unlimited amount of accounts connected from a single IP just because it could be done on OSI. Without The limiting factor that was present on OSI - the money you had to pay - this would open the door to rampant abuse which would almost solely be produced by the ability to run multiple clients on a single machine (a function which we can't control). Given those two extremes, which demand entirely different viewpoints, we have chosen a middle ground that we believe to be reasonable in light of the inability to appropriately execute the other options. Now, is it possible that things may change in the future? Yes. Will it happen for sure? No one knows. But, until that day comes and some new system, whatever it turns out to be, is introduced, we must continue to operate under this system.

Couldn't be more true. The limiting factor on accounts back in the day wasn't the ability to multi client or not multi client. It was money. Want to cut down on ghosting & such, do the same. Give everyone one free account, compared to the live servers that is being MORE then genorous as you had to pay for your first account.

Only permit people who donate to the shard to have a 2nd account. (yah, I know, I'm gonna Kal Vas Flam'd bigtime for this). It will not eliminate, but seriously cut down on people wasting accounts/slots on ghosts. It puts quite a bit of income into the server & services that host it. And the only people that will have 2nd or 3rd accounts will be those that are dedicated to actually playing on this server. As opposed to people who rolll three accounts, login once and then go away forever.

I already know this will never happen, but a win-win imo. What's the negatives?

[Donk]

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it, if you want neon dye tubs, UO:R housing, furniture changes, more lockdowns, blessed runebooks or whatever it is you think will improve the shard, then find a shard that doesn't define its identity around 99.9% T2A accurate replication.

The shard has a pretty simple manifesto, and here it is right on the main website:

Since inception, the goal, vision and rationale of even creating this shard has been very simple but unique:

* We aim to replicate the T2A era as best we can and within technical limitations as a whole.
* We do not intend to ever change any aspect of normal gameplay to particularly favor any playstyle or to protect or further expose any players to the in-game risk that was a large part of this era.
* We will especially not pull aspects of other eras into this one, even with an overwhelming demand of players.

Non-T2A mechanics belong on this shard about as much as T2A mechanics belong on a Publish 15 shard.

[Pac]

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it, if you want neon dye tubs, UO:R housing, furniture changes, more lockdowns, blessed runebooks or whatever it is you think will improve the shard, then find a shard that doesn't define its identity around 99.9% T2A accurate replication.

The shard has a pretty simple manifesto, and here it is right on the main website:

Since inception, the goal, vision and rationale of even creating this shard has been very simple but unique:

* We aim to replicate the T2A era as best we can and within technical limitations as a whole.
* We do not intend to ever change any aspect of normal gameplay to particularly favor any playstyle or to protect or further expose any players to the in-game risk that was a large part of this era.
* We will especially not pull aspects of other eras into this one, even with an overwhelming demand of players.

Non-T2A mechanics belong on this shard about as much as T2A mechanics belong on a Publish 15 shard.

Funny how people neglect to read that or just assume it was typed up to op-check Derrick's keyboard.