Help with Perma-gray

[Mikel123]

I'm having some strange issues with what I think is perma-gray.

I have three characters... "Alvin", "Thief", and "Chris".

Alvin sees Thief as constantly gray, even though Thief never stole from Alvin. Chris sees Thief as blue.

Alvin then kills Thief, who is still gray as a ghost.

Alvin then resurrects Thief, which turns him gray. Thief resurrects and is immediately criminal (!?) for two minutes.

After 2 minutes, Alvin is no longer gray and Thief is no longer criminal.

Can someone walk me through what's going on? Specifically, why is Thief perma-gray to someone who he never stole from? Why is Thief's ghost gray? (my understanding was a perma-gray person would immediately become innocent once dead). Why did Alvin turn criminal for resurrecting a dead thief? Why did Thief come back to life as gray?

[wgensel]

It doesn't matter that Thief didn't steal from Alvin. This same thing happened to me recently, so I'll bet it's the same... I bet Thief was perma-gray (stole from someone, doesn't matter who) and Alvin, at some point, attacked him. Once Alvin attacked him, Thief would show up as perma-gray from then on. But Chris probably never attacked, so he didn't show as gray to him. If Chris did attack, he would show as gray.

Thief turns gray as a ghost because he was perma-gray. He remains gray for a while after rezzed until the timer wears out. Alvin turns gray for rezzing a criminal. Thief is now no longer perma-gray until he steals from another character.

[Mikel123]

It doesn't matter that Thief didn't steal from Alvin. This same thing happened to me recently, so I'll bet it's the same... I bet Thief was perma-gray (stole from someone, doesn't matter who) and Alvin, at some point, attacked him. Once Alvin attacked him, Thief would show up as perma-gray from then on. But Chris probably never attacked, so he didn't show as gray to him. If Chris did attack, he would show as gray.

Thief turns gray as a ghost because he was perma-gray. He remains gray for a while after rezzed until the timer wears out. Alvin turns gray for rezzing a criminal. Thief is now no longer perma-gray until he steals from another character.

Weird. Alvin and the Thief are both my characters; I have no idea why I'd have attacked my own Thief... but OK.

If I left the Thief as a ghost for like an hour, would he still be gray? I'd assume this timer only lasts 2 minutes right? Otherwise a thief would never be able to be rezzed by a NPC healer.

[wgensel]

Correct. I thought it was 3 minutes, not 2 minutes, but whatever it is it wears off. I did an aggressive act towards my own thief when I had a hireling attack him to get his wrestling up. Hired it with my other char, not the thief. Maybe you did some aggressive action and just didn't notice...

[Kaivan]

I'm having some strange issues with what I think is perma-gray.

I have three characters... "Alvin", "Thief", and "Chris".

Alvin sees Thief as constantly gray, even though Thief never stole from Alvin. Chris sees Thief as blue.

Alvin then kills Thief, who is still gray as a ghost.

Alvin then resurrects Thief, which turns him gray. Thief resurrects and is immediately criminal (!?) for two minutes.

After 2 minutes, Alvin is no longer gray and Thief is no longer criminal.

Can someone walk me through what's going on? Specifically, why is Thief perma-gray to someone who he never stole from? Why is Thief's ghost gray? (my understanding was a perma-gray person would immediately become innocent once dead). Why did Alvin turn criminal for resurrecting a dead thief? Why did Thief come back to life as gray?

There do seem to be some issues here, assuming that Thief is perm-gray to begin with.

For one, if Thief doesn't steal directly from Alvin, regardless of whether he was seen when he stole from another person or not, he should appear blue to Alvin. A thief should only appear permanently gray to someone that they stole from where the theft was witnessed by anyone.

Secondly, if a thief is killed, they must wait out a 2 minute criminal timer. Being resurrected mid-way through their criminal flag should not constitute resetting the timer to 2 minutes because being resurrected is not a criminal act in of itself. Of course, Alvin would go gray for resurrecting Thief because doing so is considered a criminal action.

I'll ask Derrick to look into these issues.

[Arkon]

Maybe off-topic from what Mikel123 is mentioning but I had a situation where I had a thief steal from me (pure assumption, I was semi-afk) because when I came back the thief was next to me and grey. I attack the thief while he's grey, hit him once or twice and he suddenly turns blue less than 10s after I attacked him.

I was under the impression that regardless of perma-status, if you attack someone who is grey, even if they turn blue to everyone else they will remain grey to you while you're still attacking. Is this not the case?

[Mikel123]

Arkon, I think you're correct - that's my understanding too. Do yourself a favor though and change either "Can be attacked" or "Criminal" in your color scheme to something other than gray so you can tell them apart. That, I find, helps diagnose issues.

Kaivain, your description of perma-gray is how I always remembered it. I will say though... I resurrected my Thief pretty shortly after he died, so I'm not sure the criminal timer reset. I only mean it was about 2 minutes of being a criminal for Alvin the resurrect-caster.

[nightshark]

There are a few weird bugs I've noticed over time regarding crim/aggressor status which I haven't reported because I'm unable to recreate them.

I'm sure this one is a bug, but there's a chance it may be era accurate:
-A steals from B and is noticed, perma grey flag is applied and B will forever see A as attackable until A dies.
-Later, A steals again from B and is unnoticed. This resets the "permanently flagged as attackable" to B. A appears blue again.
-If after successfully stealing (unnoticed), B decides to attack A, B will be vulnerable to attack from A, with no consequence to A.

Regarding the third point, I believe stealing should be an aggressive action regardless of whether the thief is noticed or not. It is not currently so. I also believe "attackable" status should be applied to A (from B) even when unnoticed. Although A can be freely attacked, he still appears blue to B which I believe to be inaccurate.

There's also a strange bug unrelated to stealing where sometimes you can ressurrect and all aggressor flags are reset.

[savage018]

I never remember in OSI being perma-grey to people you didn't steal from yet I get whacked all the time by people that I know for a fact I haven't stole anything from. Weird, and very annoying.

[Arkon]

I never remember in OSI being perma-grey to people you didn't steal from yet I get whacked all the time by people that I know for a fact I haven't stole anything from. Weird, and very annoying.

No, you were perma-grey to everyone regardless of whether or not you stole from them on OSI. If you had recently stolen from "Bob" and hadn't yet died, "John" could come along later and kill you.

[savage018]

Why is it that you're only perma-grey to certain individuals then? I can walk all around the bank and not get attacked by anyone, then as I'm walking outside of town. Boom, I get attacked and I'm grey.

[Arkon]

Why is it that you're only perma-grey to certain individuals then? I can walk all around the bank and not get attacked by anyone, then as I'm walking outside of town. Boom, I get attacked and I'm grey.

Because outside of town anyone can see you're a Scoundrel/Unsavory and will test attack you to see if you turn grey without getting guard-whacked if they're mistaken.