Gold for intellectual property or licence to use copyright

[Malaikat]

The argument isn't about UOSA or Derrick suing, getting sued, etc; the argument Mens Rea is portraying is that if IRL cash for gold is a bannable offense, IRL services for gold should be fall under the same guidelines as well.

Yes. I understand the argument. Thank you.

Money =/= Services =/= Gold. No matter how equatable you feel they are in value. Perform an experiment:

Call the police and try to file a report because someone didn't give you 5k of Ultima Online gold in exchange for your 2 hours of time invested into making a picture for an online gaming forum.

Now call and file a report because someone didn't pay you actual currency for performing the same service.

Lastly, let me know which gets you scoffed at and mocked into oblivion.

[McSchnurke]

Poor experiment. I know enough cops to confidently say they'd laugh equally at either complaint. They'll also laugh when your teenage daughter wrecks her car texting and almost dies. If we used the responses of police to actually judge our moral and ethical well-being. . . well, the world would suck more. Same thing goes for forum trolls.

[Malaikat]

Thanks for entirely missing the point, being that one is actually punishable by law (falling under the jurisdiction of law enforcement)...while the other is just hilarious (falling under the jurisdiction of people who operate game servers in their free time).

[McSchnurke]

I don't buy it. I agree with your moral sentiment but practically speaking your experiment would almost certainly prove you wrong. Do you think the cops actually look for stolen cars? Doesn't change the fact that car theft is still illegal. Besides, your forum sig is a civil matter in which a police officer would only mediate or provide witness to. Even then the cop wouldn't even be witness unless some extraneous criminal act were the possible result. This isn't the law it's just the way things work.

Also, I don't appreciate your disrespectful attitude. You missed MY point. Which is to say: "your suggestion is either poorly thought out or based on ignorance of dealing with law enforcement." I suggest you try your own experiment. Or better yet, honestly ask yourself "am I really smarter than everyone else or do I just not realize when my ideas are flawed and redirect my own missunderstanding on others?"

[Malaikat]

Taking analogies literally is fun and exciting for the entire family! Just don't get confused as to what's real and what's fantasy! The last person to suffer blunt trauma to the frontal lobe through the improper use of the game board, wins!

[McSchnurke]

Taking analogies literally is fun and exciting for the entire family! Just don't get confused as to what's real and what's fantasy! The last person to suffer blunt trauma to the frontal lobe through the improper use of the game board, wins!

Thanks for not directly insulting my intelligence this time. That's a much more polite redirection.

[Mens Rea]

Thanks for not directly insulting my intelligence this time. That's a much more polite redirection.

Don't worry - the real analogy is that Malaikat is like a star [computer security risk analyst] using the last of it's fuel [self esteem] and eventually it is going to become a black hole [cry on the forums].

I've been pondering the legality of all of this for quite some time now. I've been leading you guys on a baby-steps journey to understand some of the fundamentals, so now you can turn your mind to where the legalities of all of this meets with the MMORPG aspects. Have a read some time if you are interested - these is an excerpt from a PM I sent Derrick a while ago, you might all as well have a read too.


This one is interesting because the person who wrote it knows what UO is:
"In Search of the Value of Online Electronic Personae:Commercial MMORPGs and the Terms of Participation in Virtual Communities "
http://www.bailii.org/uk/other/journals ... sis_3.html

This one deals primarily with real cash trading for pixels (you have to click download to read the paper):
"Real Money Trading in MMORPG Items From a Legal and Policy Perspective"
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1113327

[Mens Rea]

The second journal article is so fresh and so clean. Even the abstract gets me a little bit aroused:

"It follows that if RMT is a transfer of goodwill, then it must fall within the domain of private autonomy of players, and developers and publishers have no legal standing to ban RMT. Such bans are unfair insofar as they heavily infringe upon players' autonomy and their rights to the intangible value they have created.

However, because the value in RMT transactions is the goodwill associated with the item and not the item itself, RMT does not impose liability on the publishers for protection of the item's market value. Publishers ought to disclaim any involvement and liability with regard to RMT between players, but reserve the right to regulate the in-game behaviour of players."

[Chaos]

All links fail .. Also although I'm not going to get into this myself .. I would like to say how I and others I've talked to about this thread feel .. This is only an guess and I'm not saying this is or is not what is happening but it sounds like ...

You were contacted or other wise in talks with beatingU to find some way to make and argument that his account should be reinstated in which case I'm sure if his accounts would be unban and he would pay you well or face reban of what ever rules you are trying to set ..

I think its pretty clear to anyone that is not trying to find ways to break the rules what the RULES are and for anyone that is not sure if what they are about to do or if the deal they are about to make is legal .. why not just pm a staff member .. I'm SURE they can point you in the right direction .

[Mens Rea]

The links should be fixed now pony boy.

It doesn't matter if BeatingU is paying me to get him unbanned, it's a service.

[Chaos]

What is a pony boy ...
Like a MAN I ride a LLAMA.

[Mens Rea]

Yes but llama boy is so cliche.

[Mens Rea]

Actually, you know what?

I've got a different tact for this anyway.

"Soliciting anything on Second age for real currency, or in trade for items of tangible value/expense through the forums, be it public or private communication or in IRC or in-game is not allowed and will result in account termination if discovered."

Selling in-game items for money isn't against the rules, per se. Let's look at why:

"Soliciting" - asking for or trying to obtain something
"anything on Second age" - in-game items/gold
"for real currency, or in trade for items of tangible value/expense" - trading for currency or out-of-game items with value

This is straight forward, however, the general rule continues:

"through the forums, be it public or private communication" - specific prohibition on soliciting through the forums
"or in IRC" - clearly a prohibition on soliciting on the official UOSA irc channel
"or in-game" - prohibition on soliciting in the game.
"is not allowed and will result in account termination if discovered" - you will be banned for soliciting in the specific places in the rule.


So, if you do not solicit on the forums (publicly or privately), in IRC or in game, then you are not in breach of the rules. There is no prohibtion of selling in-game property for real currency, it merely just can't be discussed/negotiated on the forums, irc or in-game. The list of prohibited places to solicit only applies to the exhaustive list, presumably because these are the places affiliated with UOSA.

Therefore, there is no prohibition against - for instance - putting an advert in a newspaper, or an online auction site.

Noteably also, there is no prohibition against the exchange of gold for services which have an attached irl value - for instance, playing my local mechanic with UOSA gold. This is because the in the plain and natural sence, a service is of course not an item - with tangible value or not. There is also no prohibition against soliciting such a deal on the forums either.

[Braden]

Actually, you know what?

I've got a different tact for this anyway.

"Soliciting anything on Second age for real currency, or in trade for items of tangible value/expense through the forums, be it public or private communication or in IRC or in-game is not allowed and will result in account termination if discovered."

Selling in-game items for money isn't against the rules, per se. Let's look at why:

"Soliciting" - asking for or trying to obtain something
"anything on Second age" - in-game items/gold
"for real currency, or in trade for items of tangible value/expense" - trading for currency or out-of-game items with value

This is straight forward, however, the general rule continues:

"through the forums, be it public or private communication" - specific prohibition on soliciting through the forums
"or in IRC" - clearly a prohibition on soliciting on the official UOSA irc channel
"or in-game" - prohibition on soliciting in the game.
"is not allowed and will result in account termination if discovered" - you will be banned for soliciting in the specific places in the rule.


So, if you do not solicit on the forums (publicly or privately), in IRC or in game, then you are not in breach of the rules. There is no prohibtion of selling in-game property for real currency, it merely just can't be discussed/negotiated on the forums, irc or in-game. The list of prohibited places to solicit only applies to the exhaustive list, presumably because these are the places affiliated with UOSA.

Therefore, there is no prohibition against - for instance - putting an advert in a newspaper, or an online auction site.

Noteably also, there is no prohibition against the exchange of gold for services which have an attached irl value - for instance, playing my local mechanic with UOSA gold. This is because the in the plain and natural sence, a service is of course not an item - with tangible value or not. There is also no prohibition against soliciting such a deal on the forums either.

Frame the argument in whatever way you feel comfortable with. In the end, if you do what we consider to be against the rules that we have outlined, we will ban you for it based on OUR interpretation.

[iamreallysquall]

Actually, you know what?

I've got a different tact for this anyway.

"Soliciting anything on Second age for real currency, or in trade for items of tangible value/expense through the forums, be it public or private communication or in IRC or in-game is not allowed and will result in account termination if discovered."

Selling in-game items for money isn't against the rules, per se. Let's look at why:

"Soliciting" - asking for or trying to obtain something
"anything on Second age" - in-game items/gold
"for real currency, or in trade for items of tangible value/expense" - trading for currency or out-of-game items with value

This is straight forward, however, the general rule continues:

"through the forums, be it public or private communication" - specific prohibition on soliciting through the forums
"or in IRC" - clearly a prohibition on soliciting on the official UOSA irc channel
"or in-game" - prohibition on soliciting in the game.
"is not allowed and will result in account termination if discovered" - you will be banned for soliciting in the specific places in the rule.


So, if you do not solicit on the forums (publicly or privately), in IRC or in game, then you are not in breach of the rules. There is no prohibtion of selling in-game property for real currency, it merely just can't be discussed/negotiated on the forums, irc or in-game. The list of prohibited places to solicit only applies to the exhaustive list, presumably because these are the places affiliated with UOSA.

Therefore, there is no prohibition against - for instance - putting an advert in a newspaper, or an online auction site.

Noteably also, there is no prohibition against the exchange of gold for services which have an attached irl value - for instance, playing my local mechanic with UOSA gold. This is because the in the plain and natural sence, a service is of course not an item - with tangible value or not. There is also no prohibition against soliciting such a deal on the forums either.

Frame the argument in whatever way you feel comfortable with. In the end, if you do what we consider to be against the rules that we have outlined, we will ban you for it based on OUR interpretation.

as one post shuts down the entire argument! then again when has mens rea ever proved his point to be true..........