A Note on Era Accuracy

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theuodealer
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:50 pm

Re: A Note on Era Accuracy

Post by theuodealer »

Faust wrote:Derrick has stated mechanical accuracy is the basis of the shard but that does not include game breaking exploits. He deems what is considered game breaking and duping fell under that category.

Please explain to us why the LOS exploit should be considered game breaking?
According to Brules chat log, Derrick stated that this was not an exploit at all. Which I'll try to politely counter now. Any feature of the game exists either intentionally or unintentionally and those are the only two possibilities. Exploits are both unintentional and violate the rules of the game. To claim that this LOS issue was intentional is ludicrous. Now you can find a way to use game features in an inventive and unforeseen way without it being an exploit but not if it violates the accepted rules of the game. Even fantasy worlds operate within their own set of logical rules. In Superman's world some of the rules are he can fly, he's nearly 100% invulnerable, and green kryptonite makes him weak. So if a story was written where he ate green kryptonite cereal or had his heart carved out with a plastic knife, someone really messed up the entire structure of things. Harry Potter isn't realistic but if he sawed off his own head with a knife and lived in the movies everyone would have ridiculed it because it would have violated the rules of that world. Since the beginning of Ultima Online it has been understood and meant to be the case that house walls stopped solid objects like players, monsters, or potions, and blocked every spell except for Earthquake. Knowing that this LOS issue was unintentional and with fifteen years of gameplay behind us I think we can say that those are accepted rules of the game. Now some house walls do and some don't. This abrogates fifteen years of experience and knowledge and is an unintended feature, which is exactly what exploit means.
Faust wrote:I don't decide what is game breaking on this shard and that was my personal view on the subject matter. Game breaking is something that should be something that ruins the shard in general. Duping gold would absolutely ruin the shard and there is no questioning that notion. However, being able to kill a character macroing afk in a tower, keep, or castle only is definitely not even remotely close to being something that would ruin the shard in general.
You started by saying that you don't decide what is game breaking and ended by saying that something is definitely not game breaking. I don't want to sound rude but it should work both ways. Also, this game breaking point is so subjective that it's almost silly to even use it as an argument. For example, how many people need to quit the server before you'd consider it game breaking? There is no good answer to that. Trammel itself wasn't game breaking for OSI but it sure broke the game for a lot of people here. People without affected housing or who rarely play or talk at banks all the time probably couldn't care less about this but that doesn't make the complaints of affected or sympathetic people invalid. The only thing that you could get every player to agree was game breaking would be complete server death. By that definition it isn't game breaking. But for people who define game breaking as radically changing and ruining the game experience for a statistically significant number of players, this LOS bug fits the bill.

Don't misunderstand me: I am fully aware that this is Derrick's game and he can do whatever he wants with it. But none of these justifications hold water.
A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. ~Muhammad Ali

Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors - try to be better than yourself. ~William Faulkner

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Faust
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Re: A Note on Era Accuracy

Post by Faust »

Based on your notion much like the last guy... spells should be disrupting other spells at half potentional since this 'obvious' bug or exploit is not suppose to be redirecting another validation check for spell disruption when hit by a magical attack. However, spells would be horribly unbalanced compared to how it was during the ENTIRE game when it was first implemented with the bug in early/mid '98. There are hundreds upon hundreds of bugs/exploits that made the era mechanics function the way they should due to these bugs/exploits. However, coming up with a hard line as you mention just because of one that makes you uneasy is pretty stupid. This shard does not correct OSI/EA's mistakes unless Derrick decides if those mistakes are game breaking in his mind.

Also, there are several different ways to label an exploit here...

- OSI/EA created exploit/bug
- UOSA created exploit/bug
- RunUO created exploit/bug

Derrick could have easily labeled this known OSI/EA exploit as a non-uosa/runuo created exploit. I'm not speaking for him but pretty sure he would label this as an exploit on production shards at that time by attacking someone through house walls by these means.

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Xandorf
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Re: A Note on Era Accuracy

Post by Xandorf »

Faust wrote:The EV trick is an inaccurate exploit that will definitely be fixed eventually based on my understanding. Summoning Bladespirits and Energy Vortices by targeting inside a house was not possible.
If that's true then I'm great! That's what had me all mad and ready to quit. I could care less about MS ect.

Guess I should have made it more clear in the other thread eh?
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Brules
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Re: A Note on Era Accuracy

Post by Brules »

Right, so we have mechanical era accuracy.......except silver, and GF'd neon god like clothing.

So Derrick makes exceptions, so why not for the LoS issue. It really does ruin the "Era" feel UOSA had.

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Faust
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Re: A Note on Era Accuracy

Post by Faust »

How is silver not era accurate? GMs made several different special items on every single server that varied greatly between each one. Silver was a specially created item here on UOSA. The same could be said for non-breakable clothing bless deeds even though I do not agree with the decision.

theuodealer
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:50 pm

Re: A Note on Era Accuracy

Post by theuodealer »

Faust wrote:Based on your notion much like the last guy... spells should be disrupting other spells at half potentional since this 'obvious' bug or exploit is not suppose to be redirecting another validation check for spell disruption when hit by a magical attack. However, spells would be horribly unbalanced compared to how it was during the ENTIRE game when it was first implemented with the bug in early/mid '98. There are hundreds upon hundreds of bugs/exploits that made the era mechanics function the way they should due to these bugs/exploits. However, coming up with a hard line as you mention just because of one that makes you uneasy is pretty stupid. This shard does not correct OSI/EA's mistakes unless Derrick decides if those mistakes are game breaking in his mind.

Also, there are several different ways to label an exploit here...

- OSI/EA created exploit/bug
- UOSA created exploit/bug
- RunUO created exploit/bug

Derrick could have easily labeled this known OSI/EA exploit as a non-uosa/runuo created exploit. I'm not speaking for him but pretty sure he would label this as an exploit on production shards at that time by attacking someone through house walls by these means.
You actually disregarded the logic of everything I wrote and dismissed it with a single sentence as a hardline and stupid. I didn't want to believe what Vhyx said about talking with you Faust, but you certainly did your best to prove him right.

An ad hoc argument is defined as one hastily constructed to support or explain something without any underlying sense or framework. The constant creation of ad hoc arguments shows that a person is not arguing in good faith. As I said in another thread, the supporters of this bug have repeatedly ignored logical arguments against it and continued to create new makeshift arguments to support it. So it's obvious that many of you will never concede a point to the other side and debating with you is useless.

Because there are other people reading this though, I'll close this soundly. The ad hoc argument 'If you think the LOS exploit should be fixed then you must think xxxx bug should be fixed' is faulty from the start because bugs and exploits are not the same thing. Another criteria (which I didn't bring up but now must) for something to be an exploit is that it is somehow used by players to achieve an undesirable effect. A bug is an error in the game that is not misued by players but simply exists. I'm not familiar with the spell disruption double check but it would apply to that and any other coding error built into the game. If players have or find a way to manipulate them, they cease being bugs and become exploits. Unfortunately the very sound argument that OSI has historically fixed every exploit they were aware of in the game is another one that you all simply ignore.

While we're coming up with new arguments, I have another one to which I'm sure no bug supporter will reply. Just like in actual T2A there are plenty of people who have played here, fell in love with the game, and are now in a dilemma. They don't see how they can continue playing in light of this change but they've become so attached they don't see how they can leave either. So they stay and beg and debate on the forum and a lot of people have terrific fun calling them whiners. But what about brand new players? You can't be a whiner if you've never played on UOSA before right? So if keeping in this exploit is legitimate and there's no shame in saying it and everyone here now or yet to come should just live with it then try this - pronounce it right on the main page of the shard. Say 'The most T2A accurate shard in existence, now featuring a newly discovered exploit allowing you to be killed anywhere in a tower, keep, or castle by players standing outside!'. If you can say it on the forums you should be able to say it anywhere, but that won't happen. Because you and I and everyone else here knows that nobody who played UO during T2A would ever join this shard again. And that means something.
A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. ~Muhammad Ali

Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors - try to be better than yourself. ~William Faulkner

Daffy Duck
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Re: A Note on Era Accuracy

Post by Daffy Duck »

Blaise wrote:
Faust wrote: Might as well have a gold machine that drops castle deeds on every player when they chant the mantra "CAN HAZ GLD PLZ"
Does that work i havent tried it yet .........
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Blaise
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Re: A Note on Era Accuracy

Post by Blaise »

Daffy Duck wrote:
Blaise wrote:Might as well have a gold machine that drops castle deeds on every player when they chant the mantra "CAN HAZ GLD PLZ"
Does that work i havent tried it yet .........
Fixed that for ya. ;)

It's in the next patch we voted for.
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RedXIII
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Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:04 am

Re: A Note on Era Accuracy

Post by RedXIII »

Era Accuracy seens like a lame excuse sometimes...

Better just say: Not gonna fix/chage that cuz i dont want to or dont think its necessary, pure it!

A couple of things that were not in T2A era, runs here. Like Events, Newbified itens that doesnt break, and probably a couple other things.

All i can say to the ppl that are butthurt with the bug/exploit w/e is:

This isnt a democracy, its an absolutism. Every other shard is that way, sometimes they listen, sometimes they dont.

I like the shard so far, codes, etc. But dont come lie to me with the "T2A Accuracy" because as other ppl mentioned, there are a couple of bugs/exploits in t2a era, that u cant do it here.

PS:. I like to read this discussion, and then Derrick comes and say: "i didnt read all 10 pages, but hear me: T2a accurate, go cry in a corner".
So my suggestion is: Go play, go have fun, and stop argueing.

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