The Economy

[FishinPro]

It is astounding the amount of effort people put into talking about and trying to 'fix' the 'economy'. If you think about it, logically, there really is no economy in this game. People that want to actually just play the game don't need much. If you had 100k in the bank, which takes only 1-7 days to make depending on your skills and effort, you could buy all of the regs you need, any armor needed, multiple kegs of potions, bandages, weapons... What else do you NEED to PLAY the game??

People use the argument of "When an expensive rare comes up for sale, new players can’t purchase them!!". This is the way it is SUPPOSED to be. If it were that easy to obtain, then what would be the point of owning it? It would have the same value as any other deco item you could purchase from an NPC, pretty much. But more on point, the 'rares' trading value has nothing to do with the economy. They add 0 value to the economy and I don't think that people understand this concept. They do not create value, they exchange value.

[Samorite]

There's a few in-game that have millions, me I am happy getting a bit buying one or two shines

'fix' the 'economy' dont think its broke?

GF this GF that, yay I would love to have one but I would love love to be driving a maserati granturismo instead of a cougar.....

There's always some one out there has that little bit more than you do

[Hemperor]

It is astounding the amount of effort people put into talking about and trying to 'fix' the 'economy'. If you think about it, logically, there really is no economy in this game. People that want to actually just play the game don't need much. If you had 100k in the bank, which takes only 1-7 days to make depending on your skills and effort, you could buy all of the regs you need, any armor needed, multiple kegs of potions, bandages, weapons... What else do you NEED to PLAY the game??

People use the argument of "When an expensive rare comes up for sale, new players can’t purchase them!!". This is the way it is SUPPOSED to be. If it were that easy to obtain, then what would be the point of owning it? It would have the same value as any other deco item you could purchase from an NPC, pretty much. But more on point, the 'rares' trading value has nothing to do with the economy. They add 0 value to the economy and I don't think that people understand this concept. They do not create value, they exchange value.

I think the issue is more that the people with MILLIONS (don't kid yourself, we aren't talking 1 or 2 after a few years, we're talking tens) are generally ones who "earned" it in what I would call exploitive ways, certainly didn't take place in era.

Now, I could do the same and earn over a million to get a tower spot using tons of ingame hours (at risk, could lose lots at anytime) or I could make millions AFK while I sleep. We've certainly seen an inflation on pretty much all things, whilst population has dropped a bit, so it really can't be pointed to demand.

I think many try to downplay the situation, the reality is there are so many millions that people quietly hold because they know they've gotten them in lame ways, I've said it before; this is easily the main reason that I no longer feel the urge to be active here, I sure would like to PVP every now and then but UO is so much more than that and I believe quite a few people exploited and ruined quite a bit of it.

EDIT: My point more or less is, why should I play and do well in the game to make OK value for tons of risk, while others have become the richest (by many times) doing it at ZERO risk whilst not even being there? Perhaps the only appropriate response is that I should do the same, but I have no interest in doing that or playing with those players.

[Samorite]

big thoughtful comment

but to rise above them will win in the end as there goal to be "the richest" is not what the game is about and therefore will set the rot in

[Hemperor]

big thoughtful comment

but to rise above them will win in the end as there goal to be "the richest" is not what the game is about and therefore will set the rot in

It prevents me (and everyone else) from reasonably attaining the things most people want in game without putting in a ridiculous amount of time and risk in comparison to their free win.

What you said almost sounds nice however it's not even close to the reality of the situation...

[FishinPro]

I think the issue is more that the people with MILLIONS (don't kid yourself, we aren't talking 1 or 2 after a few years, we're talking tens) are generally ones who "earned" it in what I would call exploitive ways, certainly didn't take place in era.

EDIT: My point more or less is, why should I play and do well in the game to make OK value for tons of risk, while others have become the richest (by many times) doing it at ZERO risk whilst not even being there? Perhaps the only appropriate response is that I should do the same, but I have no interest in doing that or playing with those players.

The point I was making is that it does'nt matter how the millions are getting to each player, they don't actually affect the game. The only thing they do is allow those players to purchase pixels, which has no affect on the game. To play the game you dont need those 'cool' pixels, you need regs, potions, weapons...

[Hemperor]

I think the issue is more that the people with MILLIONS (don't kid yourself, we aren't talking 1 or 2 after a few years, we're talking tens) are generally ones who "earned" it in what I would call exploitive ways, certainly didn't take place in era.

EDIT: My point more or less is, why should I play and do well in the game to make OK value for tons of risk, while others have become the richest (by many times) doing it at ZERO risk whilst not even being there? Perhaps the only appropriate response is that I should do the same, but I have no interest in doing that or playing with those players.

The point I was making is that it does'nt matter how the millions are getting to each player, they don't actually affect the game. The only thing they do is allow those players to purchase pixels, which has no affect on the game. To play the game you dont need those 'cool' pixels, you need regs, potions, weapons...

No, to PVP you need regs, potions, weapons. Like I said earlier, this game is so much more than that, this game is comprised only of pixels... You're easily discounting every other aspect of the game as "not mattering". It affects every aspect and style.

[Elph]

How do you know that it has no effect on the game?

What is the game?

[FishinPro]

Playing the game: Talking to other people, fighting other people, fighting monsters, acquiring resources, constructing items, IDOCing, wandering the world looking for something to do.



Not playing the game: Placing pixels on the floor of your house and saying 'I wish to lock this down'. Well at least after that particular action you are no longer playing the game and those pixels don't count as 'playing the game'.



That is all...

[Elph]

Playing the game: Talking to other people, fighting other people, fighting monsters, acquiring resources, constructing items, IDOCing, wandering the world looking for something to do.



Not playing the game: Placing pixels on the floor of your house and saying 'I wish to lock this down'. Well at least after that particular action you are no longer playing the game and those pixels don't count as 'playing the game'.



That is all...

Buying supplies doesn't count as playing the game?

[mrbojangles]

The economy here is actually very strong and resilient despite the systemic problems.

The economy should be in out-of-control hyperinflation, but it's not. Ingots, boards and other resources should be costing multiples of what they cost here 5 years ago, but they don't, they cost less. In the real world inflation is calculated based upon the Consumer Price Index, if you were to calculate the inflation rate of this shard using a similiar method, you would actually see the shard has experienced deflation in it's 5 year history.

Of course the gold supply hasn't diminished over the years, but a couple of factors have kept the price of "consumer" goods low.

1. Competition: Unlike the real world, there are no barriers to entry to the different industries in this game. Anyone can make a smith, lumberjack, etc. So in almost every sector of the economy there is consistent heavy competition causing prices to remain low. There is also competition from npc vendors on some goods like arrows, regs, etc.

2. Savings rate: Also unlike the real world, and as FishinPro said, there aren't a lot of things players NEED to buy in this game. With no need to pay for food, rent, gas, etc, most players are able to save the majority of their income. And if you were to consider 'investments' like houses and rares as savings, many players would be saving nearly all of the gold they generate. This incredibly high savings rate means that there is a relatively very low amount of gold(when compared to the total supply) actually circulating within the economy.

However, increased saving does not always correspond to increased investment. If savings are stashed in or under a mattress, or otherwise not deposited into a financial intermediary such as a bank, there is no chance for those savings to be recycled as investment by business. This means that saving may increase without increasing investment, possibly causing a short-fall of demand

Basically every rich player on this shard is the crazy hermit who lives in a shack with millions buried under the flood boards. Their vast wealth has very little effect on the economy most players experience in this game. The amount of money they have has no correlation to the amount of money they spend, especially in relation to everyday consumer goods.

3. Tiered economy: There are basically two economies on this shard. One which the majority of players take part in that includes common goods like resources, potions, armor, regs, etc.. And another economy which the minority of players (rich) take part in, consisting of the high-value items like castles, rares, masks, etc.. They exist independently of eachother, and evidence shows that only the high-end tier of the economy has really been affected by inflation.

tl;dr Shit's not really that bad

[Braden]

There is no spoon.

[eggmona]

Basically every rich player on this shard is the crazy hermit who lives in a shack with millions buried under the flood boards.

god I love UO.

btw nice post!!

[Hemperor]

Kind of a silly post, Bojangles...

The economy here is actually very strong and resilient despite the systemic problems.

The economy should be in out-of-control hyperinflation, but it's not. Ingots, boards and other resources should be costing multiples of what they cost here 5 years ago, but they don't, they cost less. In the real world inflation is calculated based upon the Consumer Price Index, if you were to calculate the inflation rate of this shard using a similiar method, you would actually see the shard has experienced deflation in it's 5 year history.

There is no limited amount of those resources. They can be created the same amount over time for the exact same risk, ALWAYS. Why would ingots go to 25gp per when little Tim can start here and within 5 minutes be mining away, just as anyone could have 5 years ago?

Well I'm not actually going to break down the rest of your post but it's not applicable at all and I think you know this. Not a lot of gold being spent (as you put it) whilst we know there are quite a few players with tens of millions in gold thanks to the ways of income listed above, is actually anything but a good sign.

House spots have been on a steady rise, they are in the ridiculous range of gold now. That's because there are limited house spots, unlike the infinity of the other resources which work like clockwork 24/7 and you seem to have drawn a correlation from to "the economy is good".

[eggmona]

1. Competition: Unlike the real world, there are no barriers to entry to the different industries in this game. Anyone can make a smith, lumberjack, etc. So in almost every sector of the economy there is consistent heavy competition causing prices to remain low. There is also competition from npc vendors on some goods like arrows, regs, etc.

pretty sure he covered that hemporer.

I think bojangles description of the shard fits pretty well, and his reasons are logically good arguments for why the economy is the way it is. Just like you said, anyone can make ingots or bandages. No barrier to entry on the regular goods market causes there to be a resilience to the inflation of gold over time. Although personally, I see this as partly due to low demand as well as no barriers to entry.

ie rich players would never buy mass amounts of ingots for an inflated price, because anyone can make them. It's an interesting mechanic, which probably is purely coincidence.

edit again: This protects the "average player" market from the rich player market. thats why bojangles argument is decent at explaining the situation of second age, and why the economy actually is "not really that bad".