Self Disrupt Correct, but Targeting fizzling while equipped?

[Jaster]

The suggestion about self disrupt was a great topic that lead to it being patched, but the other half of the mechanics that was implemented [having to manually unequip while targeting] was not. It showed up from where? Well, I looked at a few patch notes and this is what I found ...

The Death of Precasting 1/24/2000 - http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_2

Pre-casting

The bug involving the ability to “pre-cast” spells and then use or take items will be fixed. After casting a spell, the targeting cursor will disappear if the player does any of the following:

* Equips or unequips an item.
* Takes an item.
* Drags an item from their backpack.

Spellbooks mandatory for casting spell 4/27/2000 - http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_5

Spellbooks

When casting a spell, the spellbook will automatically appear in your hands if it is not there already.

* The system will disarm you if you are carrying a weapon and place the spellbook in your hands.
* After the spell is complete, the spellbook will remain in your hands.
* If at any time during the casting of a spell the spellbook is removed from your hands (either by the player or from a wrestling "disarm" maneuver), the spell is interrupted.

Spellbooks not mandatory 8/21/2001 - http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_13

Spellbooks

Players will no longer be required to equip their spellbooks while casting. They may continue to do so if they so choose (holding a spellbook will not prevent you from casting a spell).

Players will be able to gain wrestling and/or tactics skill while holding a spellbook if the appropriate skill is marked to go “up”.

Pre-casting "re-enabled" 8/21/2001 - http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_13

Pre-Casting

"Pre-casting" has been re-enabled as follows:

* You cannot equip anything while you are casting.
* After you cast a spell, it will "time out" after 30 seconds and can no longer target anything. During those 30 seconds, you can now equip a weapon, attack with it without ruining your stored spell. When you release the spell, you will automatically unwield your weapon.

Previous to these notes, there is nothing involving precast or targeting while weapons are equipped. If you look at the reintroduction of pre-casting, the word "re-enabled" leads me to understand that it was implemented back in the same way. The last part of the patch note shows auto unequip while targeting as part of it. Previous to this, there is no patch note showing otherwise.

Also, if you look at the third party programs that were used and created: Razor and UO Assist; neither ever had and still don't have an auto unequip while targeting macro, yet there is an auto unequip while casting, and auto unequip for potions option. Wouldn't you think that auto unequip for targeting would be just as drastic as those 2? Why would they implement these 2 without a target option? ... perhaps, because they never had to, because it wasn't there ...

[jamison]

Loops is 100% correct. I think this latest patch was 2 separate thoughts put into one. The self disrupt thing is certainly correct (although it's hard to find anything to validate this). However, as Loops stated, the patch notes provided as evidence, do NOT support this target fizzle now implemented on the shard.

[Faust]

This could be argued both ways very easily... Here are some well known facts.

- Targeting a spell on the demo with a weapon doesn't auto unequip and this is one month before t2a was released. I would go with a function that was off by a month compared to 3 years...
- The UOR publish made items auto unequip to equip the spell book.
- The re-implementation of pre-casting was after this publish.
- Insta hit was re-implemented but wasn't added with the same exact functions. What makes anyone think that it was the same for pre-casting?
- The addition of the new pre-casting wasn't the same as the previous for obvious reasons. It only allowed WEAPONS to be pre-casted, but they kept the other pre-casting restrictions that were put in place in early '00. Example: Looting a body with a pre-casted recall was still not possible to do. This means it wasn't added EXACTLY the same as it previously was, which highly suggest the way it worked in the demo is in fact correct knowing the post patches.

[jamison]

Pre-casting "re-enabled" 8/21/2001 - http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_13

Pre-Casting

"Pre-casting" has been re-enabled as follows:

* You cannot equip anything while you are casting.
* After you cast a spell, it will "time out" after 30 seconds and can no longer target anything. During those 30 seconds, you can now equip a weapon, attack with it without ruining your stored spell. When you release the spell, you will automatically unwield your weapon.

Re-enabled and When you release the spell, you will automatically unwield your weapon. sum this up perfectly. This states that previously, this is how the mechanic worked, they removed it, and at this date it was put back in. That is the evidence for this current patch on the shard being wrong.

[Faust]

Where is the patch note that suggested this feature was put in place after the Demo? There is none... This suggests that this is actually an addition. The same thing could be said for insta hit just like I stated previously. The same feature wasn't 100% re-implemented just like many other previous re-implementations that were NEVER exactly the same as before.


I will state this comment again...

Example: Looting a body with a pre-casted recall was still not possible to do. This means it wasn't added EXACTLY the same as it previously was, which highly suggest the way it worked in the demo is in fact correct knowing the post patches.

If it was Re-added EXACTLY how it was before than why did this not apply? It wasn't added exactly the same as it was before as I previously stated.

[jamison]

Where is the patch note that suggested this feature was put in place after the Demo? There is none... This suggests that this is actually an addition. The same thing could be said for insta hit just like I stated previously. The same feature wasn't 100% re-implemented just like many other previous re-implementations that were NEVER exactly the same as before.

Show me the patch note that says this "feature wasn't 100% re-implemented". You base everything off the demo which was changed so many times. As previously stated, there is actual proof of them re-enabling this, yet there is no proof that it existed differently...

[Faust]

The Demo is an exact compilation of the OSI code in September of '98 a month before t2a was released on October 1st '98. This was the SAME code that was used during that time period. That is more hard evidence than a patch that "CLAIMS" it was re-implemented exactly as it was before when I clearly showed you an example that it WAS not.

[jamison]

So a patch note, issued by OSI only "claims" what is true?

I don't see how you're calling an official patch note merely a "claim", when your entire argument is based on assumptions and claims.

[Derrick]

Pre-casting re-enabled 8/21/2001 - http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_13

Pre-Casting

"Pre-casting" has been re-enabled as follows:

I think actually "as follows" could just as easily be the highlighted term here. The patch not doesn't go into all the details of what pre casting means/meant, but makes specific effort to point out that your weapons will be unequipped for you.

Don't let this thread get out of hand on word by word analysis, but let room for people who have additional information on this to present.

We are very aware of the 2001 patch note and it is the reason we had auto-unequip in there in the first place. As with the equip to interrupt, very little exists in terms of written evidence to substantiate it, however citing the above evedence by Faust, it's is indeed much more substanciated than the equip to disrupt, which is almost entirely based on ancedotal evidence.

edit: After seeing the above bickering, I should comment that well thought out posts would be appreciated.

[jamison]

So if it's purely anecdotal evidence get rid of both functions of it. Both of you are arguing semantics and what you assume to be right. There is no evidence to support your claim other than Faust's never ending "it's in the demo" line.

[Faust]

Example: Looting a body with a pre-casted recall was still not possible to do. This means it wasn't added EXACTLY the same as it previously was, which highly suggest the way it worked in the demo is in fact correct knowing the post patches.

This was possible when pre-casting existed in '99. There is actually CLEAR evidence that it was possible in UOHOC chat logs and obviously possible in the demo. This was fixed when pre-casting was removed. However, this was NOT possible to do when it was re-implemented. They only allowed weapons to not break the target cursor. This means that pre-casting was in fact not added EXACTLY how it was previously like the patch note suggests.

So if it's purely anecdotal evidence get rid of both functions of it.

What would you suggest take its place?

[Jaster]

I will explain my interpretation of that patch note:

Pre-casting "re-enabled" 8/21/2001 - http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_13

Pre-Casting

"Pre-casting" has been re-enabled as follows:

* You cannot equip anything while you are casting.
* After you cast a spell, it will "time out" after 30 seconds and can no longer target anything. During those 30 seconds, you can now equip a weapon, attack with it without ruining your stored spell. When you release the spell, you will automatically unwield your weapon.

Pre-casting was a bug according to OSI, which is why it was not explained in detail anywhere else prior to this point. With precasting being re-enabled as an official game mechanic, it is OSI's job to explain the mechanic in detail. Anything that changed from its previous form was detailed

[* You cannot equip anything while you are casting.]

You can argue that the next [*] is the same; however, all it is is an explanation of how the pre-cast mechanic works.

OSI never detailed bugs until they were fixed. Faust's re implementations being different arguement doesn't hold up IMO because how many of them were reimplementation of bugs? They weren't reimplemented back in the same, because they were official mechanics that were changed.

[Fwerp]

Heh, this is good research to me, but it only seems to indicate that after 2001, precasting worked as specified in the last patch note. The fact that that they said they "re-enabled" something well-known like pre-casting, and then stipulated how it would work explicitly does NOT logically mean that they are re-enabling exactly how it was before.

I frankly remember getting "the spell fizzles" when I tried to target spells when I had a weapon equipped (by mistake, typically). Also, given that precasting was initially considered a bug, I have a hard time believing that the mechanics surrounding it made pre-casting fail-safe and idiot proof (as auto-unequipping weapons then dropping the spell does).

Lastly, given that in the demo, precasting works as it currently does on the live server, and this comports with my memory, I am led to believe that the current system is more era accurate than the previous. Obviously, the demo is not the end-all-be-all, but selective interpretations of patch notes are not dispositive either

[Fwerp]

Basically Jamison, my argument would be this:

(1) There is nothing in the patch notes around the time of the demo concerning pre-casting until it's removal.
(2) As such, it makes sense to use the way pre-casting exists in the demo.
(3) The "re-enabled" note can be interpreted in multiple, plausible ways. The only thing that is for certain from it is that after 2001, pre-casting worked in the ways specified in the note. No where does it say that the mechanic is reintroduced exactly as it was -- they simply specify how it would work from then on. There are many reasons why they would introduce it in a modified way (other game mechanics have changed drastically, they wanted to make it less arcane/abstruse for players, they thought it would make pvp faster paced or more fun, etc.)
(4) It is of course plausible to read the patch note as re-introducing precasting exactly as it was, but it's equally plausible to read it as them introducing it in a slightly different way, and then specifying exactly how it wold work.
(5) Given the ambiguity of the patch note, it makes sense to use the mechanics in the demo
(6) Also, the varying memories of this phenomenon are explained if there were two systems in place over a relatively short period of time. If there was only one system Faust and I are completely remembering something from out of no where, and it just happens to be in the demo... That seems rather unlikely to me.
(7) I won't even say this is evidence, but here is another dude explaining precasting as working in the same way it currently works on the live server:
http://forum.skotos.net/archive/index.php/t-26079.html

Precast was a bug or 'feature' that allowed you to deal a good amount of damage in minimal time. The way UO's casting system worked was that you hit your macro for the spell, the spell words appear above the characters head, your character goes through the casting animation and then you have 10 seconds or so to select a target. The bug was that in the 10 or so seconds that you could target you could also equip a weapon and instantly hit (or miss) when in range due to another bug. The basic combo was cast explosion (a delayed direct damage spell) target, cast energy-bolt (a direct damage spell), equip halberd attempt to hit enemy with halberd, unequip halberd, target e-bolt. The target is most likely within an ebolt of death. All the damage was applied at the same time so you couldn’t heal half way through it. This was important because healing was very fast in that game.

[Faust]

Here is a quote written in September 1999 in a PVP guide that CLEARLY states to disarm the weapon and proceed casting the spell...

Precasting : this is the thing that all the monsterkillers whine about that makes the mage half worthwhile in pvp to play. This consists of casting a spell, but instead of releasing it, arm a weapon (using your favorite 3rd party program or...*shiver*...Origin's version), hit them once with the weapon, disarming, and releasing the spell. Whew. To put it a little simpler, this keeps the targetting cursor up while you whack away with your weapon. Then when they start to heal, you can disarm and release the spell, rather than disarm and starting to cast, which takes too long. Greater heal is faster than ANY attack spell you will use in battle, so precasting is the only way to beat it.

Now the combos become a little more complicated and involve precasting with weapons.
Explosion/precast FS/weapon hit/release FS. This combo is EXTREMELY deadly. Especially when combined with a nice magic hally or qstaff, this can easily kill a low-resist target at once. Basically what this does is confuses the early healer. Once you cast the explosion, then the FS the opponent will think to heal as soon as he's unparalyzed. However, without releasing the flamestrike, you arm your weapon and attack him. He will usually cancel the heal or delay it, but then you do a quick disarm and release the flamestrike.

Note the step by step process in each part...
1)Hit with weapon, disarm, and release spell...
2)You can disarm and release the spell... Last but not least...
3)Do a quick disarm and release the flamestrike...

Not one, not two, but three cases where it specifically tells you to disarm a weapon. Coincidence, huh? I hardly think so...

We know that this is how it worked a month before t2a's release. There is evidence in this guide that highly suggests the same function existed a year later. The only thing we know for the opposite argument is that it worked in 2001. A huge period after the UOR publish. I think this post pretty much wraps this argument up.