Should scams committed via IRC be deemed "illegal?"

[Hicha]

Due to some recent events, seems like the topic of scams or scamming has been brought up over and over, so I felt it deemed a thread.

The official statement in the trade forums is:

"Scamming while permitted in-game may not be perpetrated though the forums or IRC. However, do not take this rule to mean everything you see in here is legitimate. Take precautions. This rule may be enforced retroactively."

Now, by no means am I for scamming people, but I do feel it has its rightful place here within the mysterious world of Ultima Online. However, my argument resides in how IRC is considered a legitimate trade media, in which all illegal transactions can be punishable.

Let me digress with two examples:

a.) I am advertising in Brit, asking if anyone is interested in buying a +25 hally halberd. A player approaches and shows interest, to which I inform him the transaction will take place at my vendor. He follows me to my vendor, and while I'm in the process of placing the item on the vendor, he proceeds to kill me and loot the item instead.

b.) I am advertising in IRC, asking if anyone is interested in buying a +25 hally halberd. A player messages and shows interest, to which I inform him the transaction will take place at my vendor. He meets me at my vendor, and while I'm in the process of placing the item on the vendor, he proceeds to kill me and loot the item instead.

Two legit stories, in which I've underlined the few minor differences between them, so I ask; how is a transaction over IRC deemed illegal when the exact same transaction can occur in-game and be considered legal?

My proposal: only transactions posted in the trade forums should be considered legally binding and have rules imposed should either party decide to scam in any way, shape or form. IRC should be treated with the same rules that apply using the in-game chatting.

Discuss.

[Dagon]

Does it REALLY matter? I mean the way it is now only gets you banned from the IRC channel.. *big deal*. It's not like anyone is going to be banned from the game....... which would be the preferred outcome.

[Hicha]

Does it REALLY matter? I mean the way it is now only gets you banned from the IRC channel.. *big deal*. It's not like anyone is going to be banned from the game....... which would be the preferred outcome.

It really doesn't matter to me, I just wish people would stfu about it. Figured a post would settle it once and for all.

[Rhaps]

I feel all scamming no matter what route it takes be it irc, in game or whatever should either be legal or illegal.

As your post shows there is really no difference. I'd say make it legal and leave the players to police themselves and take proper precautions to protect their trades. After all nearly every other negative aspect of gameplay is left to the player base to police so I don't see why scamming should be an exception. The only aspect of gameplay the admins should be looking to intervene in is hacking/bug exploitation, severe harrassment and extremely obscene behavior (I'd like to see less racist chat in irc and in-game).

While I personally would not perpetrate a scam I have had people attempt to scam me many times in various MMOs. I feel it's down to the players to inform themselves of the common scamming methods and equip themselves with the knowledge to prevent being scammed. The best solution would be a "common scams" thread rather than the somewhat inflamitory "known scammers" thread thats been appearing lately. Something like this that comes from the Guild Wars Wiki is what I mean http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Common_scams . No names etc, just a set of rules and lookouts for new players so that they can protect themselves.

Hopefully with that in place we can see the end of the pointless bickering that clogs the forums every time someone gets scammed.

[son]

It should all be legal, this kinda shit promotes carebear and extra work for the admins.

Not hard to take precautions.

[Duke Jones]

I feel that although it sucks, scamming is part of the freedom of the game.
[In-game scamming: Legal & player-policed]

IRC... Meh. It could go either way. There's often crazy things that go on in IRC. It should be Pseudo-safe (no active scamming, but if you're advertising risk to yourself like where you are and you get PKed or thieved, etc, its legal.

BUT the only thing making me hesitant to consider IRC & the Forums the same is the following:
-IRC & the Forums represent a medium in which the players should depend on the community for helpful information. The last thing we need to do is make players (new or old) unsure what information they can or can't trust on our official forums. The forums should be protected and using it for scamming purposes should be illegal.

[Rhaps]

I see your point there Duke, but in the end all scams will eventually be perpetuated in-game as that is the only place the transactions can actually occur. So although I'd be loathed to see the forums and IRC fill with scamming posts/advetisments I don't feel that it as big a problem as the drama would infer. I don't think we will see a flood of scammers using IRC and forums as we have, for the most part, a pretty mature and friendly community here so lets just legalise it all and leave it down to the players to be savvy enough to dodge a scam when it comes there way.

Also son makes a very good point about the use of admin time. Anything that takes pressure away from Derrick and co. and allows them to work on the more important aspects such as era accuracy will benefit the shard in the long term and prevent them burning out having to deal with endless disputes within the community, often over what is essentially just a bunch of pixels

[DrFaustus]

I don't see how IRC =/= scamming.

Like, before advertising, why don't you have the halberd on the vendor? Too poor? Go farm some gold so you don't lose this amazing item to something as trivial as a gank.

It's not hard people.

I fully support IRC/Forums with this game. It makes a lot of things more convenient/organized.

[GuardianKnight]

Scamming ruins the game for people that just want to play. I voted that it should stay legal but not in forums or irc.

We need some holy ground that we can't hit each other in. IRC and FOrums are it.

I do think that it's one thing to scam / loot someone but taking pictures and making it a fun activity for some to praise should be pushing the limit.

[BlackFoot]

i think this should be completely player policed as well
that is, through word of mouth tell each other who can and cant be trusted to do business with safely
i have a thread in the trade forum in progress that will be listing well known scammers for traders/new players information
im sure we can save a few new players some heartbreak fairly easily this way

[Kabal]

Any time its possible to protect yourself from "scams" and you don't, its your own fault.

[GuardianKnight]

Any time its possible to protect yourself from "scams" and you don't, its your own fault.

Do you play a game and automatically start out thinking " i better watch out for people tricking me out of my things"?

Games generally have rules and when you take things from people it goes 1 of 2 ways. 1. They learn to distrust everyone here and play with people and treat them like nothing but tools. 2. They quit and tell people to avoid this place.

[Kabal]

first of all, yes, every time I start any game I always think I better watch out for myself, or my stuff in this case, its just part of being a good gamer. Second, if you cant deal with people taking your stuff, maybe this isn't the game for you, can you picture someone saying to their friend, "hey dude, dont play on second age, people will take your stuff"? Third, If you let someone treat you like a tool, thats your own fault as well, this is where the protecting yourself thing comes in again.

[poogoblin]

I don't really care if they are Illegal or Legal....I just want it spelled out which it is. The current way it is isn't working.

It is said that on General IRC and Trade forums scams are illegal but people get away with 1mil+ items with a minimal ban from these channels/forums. That seems to hardly fit the crime.

If they are Illegal enforce something where the crime fits the punishment.

Otherwise just leave it Legal everywhere and let people know they need to watch their every transaction.