UO Second Age

Faust wrote:

Kaivan wrote:
PS
Wrestling should be changed to a speed of 25 based on the only known reference that we have for it now...

That's about the worse idea I've heard.

You know well that such a change would only make being able to take a persons swing away more difficult and further imbalance the system.

On one hand you argue that a 2.4 second Hally swing from a person with 25 stamina is too slow.

And then you support changing wrestling to a speed of 25 which would make a punch available at 5 seconds ( conincidently what a Hally Whack really is)...

And then to put a throttle on AttackLast...

Add all this up and what you want is to twist all the factors in favor of a certain template.


The fact is, basing any fast hally whack on the wresling timer works well. What you refuse to realize is that on 8.26.99 OSI introduced AttackLast and when used can tharwt a fast Hally Whack.

I think that if this shard does keep a fast hally whack for some reason (I still do not believe it existed after the OSI patch of 2.26.99 the fixed it) it certainly must stay on the wrestling timer so that factors such as stamina and a characters template could be factored in. (As long as the refresh rate is set to not allow a swing faster than 2.0 seconds.)

As far as the abuse of AttackLast? I support a throttle of it's use with the same restrictions as tabbing.

In this scenario what you will have is an ability to swing a hally up to 2.5 seconds faster than designed with a risk of losing your swing if the opponet uses AttackLast correctly. A player must be aware of their stamina to get the timing down and thus require some skill rather than a flat timer which lends itself to the ability to use a Razor script.

I can not see why this is unacceptable. It is by far the most balanced approach to this bug.

But that sounds too simple Cortez. Can't be right.

I have already stated the inconsistancies for the system revolving around wrestling that you continue to ignore time after time when someone wastes a refresh on a punch... It will not be based off of wrestling for many reasons that has been stated here and in your private pm's between the staff...

Secondly, what are you talking about wrestling being extending making it worse?

Do you realize when your swing is ready after the disarm delay YOU punch? That was the reason people would run up towards the end to waste your swing when doing a weapon cycle. Wrestling uses the same timer that ALL melee weapons use. This means once your swing is ready after cycling a weapon you WILL punch. Changing the wrestling timer to 25 would make no difference on that situation at all...

I did not say 2.4 was too slow... The current formula that isn't 2.4 but a range from 2.4 to 2.9 for the disarm delay on tc currently is TOO slow. If you are unable to have a swing ready after an ebolt it's TOO slow. That is a simple fact that surrounds this feature that any vet that actually played knows.

Your theory on that patch can spin as many times as you would like it too. I used insta hit refreshes up until pre casting was removed roughly around the same time that I quit the game. The article that describes casting skipping the delay is well beyond that patch date.

Again, wrestling is NOT how insta hit refreshes worked.. Simply accept it and move on son.

I have submitted a formula for the disarm delay that is based around 2 - 2.5 seconds based on stamina to remove the exploit. That is sufficient enough to re-create this feature that also resolves the exploit with modern technology allowing it to be open to the exploit.

On a side note, if you ebolt, let the damage hit and then go for swing, you can do it everytime, and it is ready "AFTER" the ebolt ... maybe not after the cast, but after the cast and damage it is ...

... is there any evidence that supports that you could get a hally swing after an ebolt cast [and have it precasted], or just after an ebolt [and having it target and do damage]?

Yeah, the people that used the game mechanic knows that your swing was ready soon as the target was up not after it dealt damage. The evidence in itself is the 2 second disarm delay in the article. There is only one mention of this delay period. It was clearly stated to be 2 seconds not 2.25, 2.5, 2.75, or anything else for that matter. Where is your evidence that suggests that it was after the damage? The amount of assumptions and hypothetical theories that some of you can throw left and right means absolutely nothing. I can say that the refresh was in fact 1.75... What would make that true?

Faust wrote:Yeah, the people that used the game mechanic knows that your swing was ready soon as the target was up not after it dealt damage. The evidence in itself is the 2 second disarm delay in the article. There is only one mention of this delay period. It was clearly stated to be 2 seconds not 2.25, 2.5, 2.75, or anything else for that matter. Where is your evidence that suggests that it was after the damage? The amount of assumptions and hypothetical theories that some of you can throw left and right means absolutely nothing. I can say that the refresh was in fact 1.75... What would make that true?

Here's the only source that Faust has been able to provide that suggests that there was a fast hally whack after 2.26.99.

faust8d = Faust
rroweatl = NightHawk

faust8d: I literally remember being able to eb, hally, eb, hally, but if you do the match that's a pause of 3.25s in between waiting
faust8d: and even at 56k of 200 average ping that's only an addition of 0.2 seconds
faust8d: for packets etc..
rroweatl: but you remember, you had to get distance and such
rroweatl: i dunno about 3 seconds of running

That doens't seem like 2000ms to me.

It wasn't 2000 ms. If it was, he'd be able to provide a real source after OSI said they fixed it.

Here's some more insight from Faust's source...

rroweatl: whatever weapon you have equipped (or your punch swing if unarmed) has a timer
rroweatl: timer ends
rroweatl: next swing is ready
rroweatl: the key to the insta-hit hally or whatever was to be out of melee range while casting
rroweatl: so it didn't trigger the punch timer
rroweatl: so whatever the last melee swing was the timer had long since expired during casting
rroweatl: and thus... the next hit was instant
faust8d: at 25 stam a hally swings every 5 seconds
faust8d: slower if you lose stam
rroweatl: naturally
faust8d: an ebolt takes 1.75s to cast
faust8d: so if you hit with a hally setting your timer to 5 seconds, cast an ebolt, how is it possible to reduce that much time on your swing?
rroweatl: but since by the time you get distance between you and them, cast your spell, re-equip, etc
rroweatl: the timer is gone
rroweatl: i don't know if it was 5 seconds or 4 or whatever
rroweatl: i'd know by feel, but i can't just rattle off a number
rroweatl: i didn't time it

Red, is a description of the old bug or, if it existed past 2.26.99, a fast hally whack clearly based on the wrestling speed.

Blue, shows that his source recognizes that if you lost stam, that your insta-hit took longer.

Green, shows that even this expert didn't time it. Most likely because of the varibility.

Faust wrote:Yeah, the people that used the game mechanic knows that your swing was ready soon as the target was up not after it dealt damage. The evidence in itself is the 2 second disarm delay in the article. There is only one mention of this delay period. It was clearly stated to be 2 seconds not 2.25, 2.5, 2.75, or anything else for that matter. Where is your evidence that suggests that it was after the damage? The amount of assumptions and hypothetical theories that some of you can throw left and right means absolutely nothing. I can say that the refresh was in fact 1.75... What would make that true?

I was asking a question and you act disrespectful like I'm coming at you ... good show

You know.. it is significant to point out that Nighthawk, Faust's source, does not make a distinction between the confirmed bug of pre-2.26.99 patch and any other mechanism.

So in other words, either nothing changed despite what OSI clearly and officially published or, the bug and the mechanism Nighthawk remembers and described all was before the patch.

the old timer felt much better and more accurate.

on test there is no reason to be a haly mage right now.

even with large instas, the main reason for haly mages in the first place, you still suck.

1 hand weapon - kryss/katana or qstaff is the only way to go. the dps on nay of those weapons is so much higher than halberad now. it always was, but now its ridic.

And on top of that if you play a haly mage, you now have even more time spent dodging atk last (which everyone does) to try and get that one swing, that is fucking crucial to your ability to maintain dmg. if your opponent sticks on you with a fast wep and atk last. you are fighting a major uphill battle the entire time, praying for some luck.

I am not wasting my time any longer replying to Cortez anymore on this subject... The evidence is out there backing up the veterans that remember being able to have a hally swing ready after a 6th circle spell. To think that it only existed less than a month after insta hit was implemented is ignorant beyond belief. The evidence behind the disarm delay that is STILL in use today with a slight modification that was clearly stated in the article is enough in itself. This doesn't include the multiple articles and the screenshot that obviously defies a 5 second hally dely multiple times. The article clearly states that your swing is ready after casting any spell and this was after pre casting was removed in early 2000... That is only a good 10-11 months after the patch in late February of '99. We can continue spinning around in circles on this topic with assumptions and theories endlessly. The facts will still remain that surrounds this issue clearly backing it up with evidence and logic unlike the opposite argument that is only based on assumptions and theories that has nothing to back it up.

Faust wrote:I am not wasting my time any longer replying to Cortez anymore on this subject... The evidence is out there backing up the veterans that remember being able to have a hally swing ready after a 6th circle spell. To think that it only existed less than a month after insta hit was implemented is ignorant beyond belief. The evidence behind the disarm delay that is STILL in use today with a slight modification that was clearly stated in the article is enough in itself. This doesn't include the multiple articles and the screenshot that obviously defies a 5 second hally dely multiple times. The article clearly states that your swing is ready after casting any spell and this was after pre casting was removed in early 2000... That is only a good 10-11 months after the patch in late February of '99. We can continue spinning around in circles on this topic with assumptions and theories endlessly. The facts will still remain that surrounds this issue clearly backing it up with evidence and logic unlike the opposite argument that is only based on assumptions and theories that has nothing to back it up.

Need I remind you again that your source does not place his fight in August of 1999?

In the quote below Faust is talking to Nighthawk about swing timers and the source used to establish them on UOSA. Please note the section in red.

rroweatl: as i said earlier
rroweatl: 5 seconds sounds long to me
rroweatl: but i can't say what it should be
rroweatl: since i didn't time it
faust8d: we are using the table from stratics '99 web site
faust8d: that states that a hally has a speed of 25
rroweatl: which is probably a year after the fight took place

Look, the simple fact is that a constant 2 second Hally Whack is totally rediculous. That's a hell of a lot of damage from the weapon alone. Throw in there spell damage and there is just no balance in PvP.

I'm sorry, but I think you are the least objecive thinker on this subject and discredited.

Your sources can't even peg it to a hit that fast and simple logic would state that OSI, after announcing they fixed that bug, would not have allowed it to become reincarnated in a version even worse than the orignal.

I'm not going to fold under your relentless rethoric. Sure, you can get a lot of people who have an interest in things going a certain way to 'remember' something on OSI but I can tell you that if such a situation existed where there was a constant 2 second hit you would be able to find many many many sources and not the same lame two you point towards.

Lord Hades, when he was speaking of 2 seconds on the stratics page, could have been talking about 2000ms, 2250ms, 2500ms and even 2750ms. We don't even know if he was talking about using a Hally. Can you prove it?

Secondly, that Nighthawk story from the JOV page has a number of holes. Namely the date of the battle described and timeline of events. Your recent conversation with him, aimed to help clarify, actually punches more holes into your case.

Thridly, and just for arguments sake, let's say that Nighthawks battle occured on 8.19.99, the same date of the story. AttackLast was introduced on 8.26.99. We all know how that thrawts the hally refresh.

And lastely, we know that OSI had just spent a lot of time developing their Stamina based attack speed formula. We know that the wrestling speed is unlisted on the charts. And we know that OSI treats Wrestling like any other melee weapon.

With all that, it is very very clear that the fix of 2.26.99, which fixed the system from using the previously armed weapon, was the implementation of the Disarm timer designed to 'arm' wrestling when your hands were free.

As much as you do not want to admit this, the fact is that this would be the only source of any faster than 5 second refresh of a hally whack. I agree with Derrick that the wresling speed should be 50 and, if used properly, would give you a fast hally whack of 2.4 seconds @ 25 stamina or 3.0 seconds @ 1 stamina. The means, you get to swing the heavist weapon a full 2.6 to 2.0 seconds faster than all OSI published charts in the era say you should.

I fail to see why that would be unacceptable. The difference between the your current flat 2.0 second failed system and a era correct one which uses the wrestling timer is .4 seconds. As I said, I would gladly take 2.6 seconds off the healing timer or even .4 seconds.

I think some people have too many poorly scritped player run shards in their memory of Pre UO:R mechanics.

JoV News - September 1999 - http://www.wtfman.com/oldjov/ wrote: Thursday September 15, 1999
Conclusion to quick story
I posted the result from the Sysic story I posted to the news page a couple of days ago. Not a lot new except for the results of the duel today, but all combined it was enough to make into a story. So, being the slacker that I am, I took the easy route and just posted a new story to the stories section.

If you give a shit, go look there for the conclusion.

2:18pm EST -Nighthawk

We actually know the specific time frame of the story... Fail, again?

Please spare me the comment saying it was worse than the original... That is a flat out lie that you keep spinning thinking people will actually believe you. I didn't know how going from 1 second hallies from 3 seconds to 2 second hallies from 3 seconds hallies makes things worse... Again, lie.

My "lame" 4 sources are better than your "lame" 0 sources...

Attack last doesn't "thwart" hally refreshes in a tank mage fight...

Nobody sat there spamming it non-stop during tank mage duels.

Wrestling has already been proven to be half of what you're saying it is for obvious reasons. Sorry, AOS changed the speed of pretty much every single combat weapon. Wrestling was not an exception. It was changed to a speed of 50. If someone actually saw how fast a speed of 50 swung they would down right laugh at you.

Again, it's unacceptable because wrestling was not the cause behind this function as you clearly neglect to understand the inconsistancies that I have told you only a dozen times now that involves using the counter measure.

Again, fail.

AOS Changes wrote:Virtually all weapon & armor stats have changed. This includes their strength requirements (which have increased), damage values, and swing speeds.
Weapons:
“Exceptional” weapons gain a 20% bonus to their damage rating (except for Runic weapons, which will only get a 10% bonus).
Weapon Damage Enchantments:
“Ruin” becomes 15% damage bonus
“Might” becomes 20% damage bonus
“Force” becomes 25% damage bonus
“Power” becomes 30% damage bonus
“Vanquishing” becomes 35% damage bonus
Weapon Accuracy Enchantments:
“Accurate” becomes 2% hit chance increase
“Surpassingly” becomes 4% hit chance increase
“Eminently” becomes 6% hit chance increase
“Exceedingly” becomes 8% hit chance increase
“Supremely” becomes 10% hit chance increase
Weapon Durability Enchantments:
“Durable” becomes 20% durability bonus
“Substantial” becomes 50% durability bonus
“Massive” becomes 70% durability bonus
“Fortified” becomes 100% durability bonus
“Indestructible” becomes 120% durability bonus

This was the only documented change to weapon speeds since the change around t2a. We can not accept a value of wrestling sitting at a speed of 50 that is documented almost a decade later compared to using one that is only a month later from the t2a era. That is by far the most idiotic thing anyone could ever use.

I thought you were done?

The whole pivot point of your case goes on Lord Hades page.

Can you prove he was speaking about all weapons?
Can you prove that he wasn't talking about 2250 ms or 2500 ms?
Can you prove that what he was speaking about didn't account for stamina?
Can you even prove that what he was speaking about actually went into the live system?


And, please, by all means, disprove this official statement and patch note form OSI dated after Lord Hades error ridden page:

OSI Patch Note wrote: Mini-update with small fixes Feb 26 1999 11:25AM
An exploit for getting slow weapons to hit faster has been fixed.

You have no case, no definative sources, and show a complete bias towards the templates which you play. On all accounts, Fail Fail Fail.

Background:

Late 1998 and early 1999 OSI was working on a fix to stop an exploit that allowed players, with a certain 3rd party program, to switch out a Katana for a Hally and have the Hally Whack at the speed of a katana.

Dread Lord Hades 2.1.99 wrote:Disarming Weapons: gives a 2 second delay. Ok, wonderful but this goes hand in hand with the hit being calculated at the beginning of each swing to cause further inbalances.

http://uo.stratics.com/warfare/hallnews ... ocookies=1

From the source and quote above Faust believes that Lord Hades was saying that OSI put in a flat timer on disarm set at 2000ms.

What's wrong that that? Well, OSI had just spent a lot of time adjusting all their weapons to a stamina based timer. His fix not only would ignore character dex values but stamina and clearly would not fix the problem they were working on.

What's wrong with UOSA using that interpreation? Well, setting a flat disarm timer based on this one source and giving it a value of 2000 ms is just wrong, especailly in the light of this post.

OSI Patch Notes wrote:Mini-update with small fixes Feb 26 1999 11:25AM

* House owners and friends will be able to instantly reveal anyone hidden in their house, regardless of skill level, on the grounds that they know their house better than any stranger. This will not cause the skill to go up.
* Cutting up fish will work correctly.
* Fixes for pets, hirelings, and summoned creatures not obeying commands will go in. In particular:
* Hirelings will not be affected at all by your taming skill.
* Summoned creatures won't be either.
* Pets will now function correctly. This is to say, higher level tamers will be able to order around powerful creatures easily, whereas lower level tamers will have difficulty getting them to obey orders.
* The time your character must exist before being allowed to join the Thieves Guild has been shortened.
* Adding items to a trash can past the container limit will cause the instant deletion of everything in the trash can.
* You will only be able to steal specific items from enemy guild members, instead of only being able to random steal from them.
* An exploit for getting slow weapons to hit faster has been fixed.
* The mana drain and mana vampire spells have had the chance of being resisted raised substantially.
* The stealth skill now will give a message when used successfully.
* A problem with gate travel scrolls was corrected.

http://wiki.uosecondage.com/index.php?t ... atch_Notes

Offical patch notes, the things most of the systems here are based on, clearly states that a slow weapon speed is fixed.


What is the most likely and reasonable situation? OSI fixed the weapon switching bug by adding a "Disarm" timer that is set to wrestling. (We ALL agree that the Disarm timer was added here)

Why wrestling? Because for all other purposes, OSI treats Wrestling like a melee weapon. You get the benefit of hit avoidance specifically.

Since there are no 'weapons' to arm for wrestling, the new disarm timer was designed to 'arm' wrestling.


One may ask why pepole claim there was a fast hally whack post 2.26.99. Well, the only logical reason is that for some reason the wrestling timer allowed a fast hit.

If you armed any weapon after the wrestling timer had been cooled down then you can swing that weapon. So in other words, you could swing a hally when the wrestling timer was ready. If that wrestling timer was set to be faster than a Hally, well, then you got a faster swing.

There's strong reasons to beleive that the wrestling timer was set to 50, which is twice as fast as the hally speed of 25.

Faust, for whatever reason, feels that my more logical explaination of the events isn't satisfactory because he has to wait .4 more seconds for his fast swing.

What do you guys think?