Forensic Eval and Perma Grey

[MatronDeWinter]

Forensics has never revealed perma-grey status. That's just an old rumor from forever ago. What it does do, is tell if they are in the thieves guild, and remove their disguise kit (if you have enough skill), as well as determining who killed, looted, corpses and whatever other misc data it presents.

You can tell if someone is perma, but this is not the way.

[Xukluk Tuguznal]

Yea, I was more of to the thinking on the part of being able to attack someone you've identified as being in the thieves guild. Never had heard that one before. But My first time playing a thief was a bit after UOR came out on Atlantic. Then on GL when I made my disarm thief. That had to be one of the most fun templates I've ever utilized.

[Ronk]

Yea, I was more of to the thinking on the part of being able to attack someone you've identified as being in the thieves guild. Never had heard that one before. But My first time playing a thief was a bit after UOR came out on Atlantic. Then on GL when I made my disarm thief. That had to be one of the most fun templates I've ever utilized.

Disarm thieves existed in T2A...you just had to kill the person before you could disarm them ^_^

[Xukluk Tuguznal]

Yea, I was more of to the thinking on the part of being able to attack someone you've identified as being in the thieves guild. Never had heard that one before. But My first time playing a thief was a bit after UOR came out on Atlantic. Then on GL when I made my disarm thief. That had to be one of the most fun templates I've ever utilized.

Disarm thieves existed in T2A...you just had to kill the person before you could disarm them ^_^

Bah that isn't stealing. That's called bounty or fruits of your labor. That's more a kin to courting a woman to marry her. I'm more for taking the goods and departing without a word.

[archaicsubrosa77]

Yea, I was more of to the thinking on the part of being able to attack someone you've identified as being in the thieves guild. Never had heard that one before. But My first time playing a thief was a bit after UOR came out on Atlantic. Then on GL when I made my disarm thief. That had to be one of the most fun templates I've ever utilized.

Disarm thieves existed in T2A...you just had to kill the person before you could disarm them ^_^

Bah that isn't stealing. That's called bounty or fruits of your labor. That's more a kin to courting a woman to marry her. I'm more for taking the goods and departing without a word.

thus your mature signature

[Xukluk Tuguznal]

Think that was more of funny then anything else. Course at the time it was funnier because everyone knew the context in which it was wrote.

[Mens Rea]

You could tell if someone was in the thieves guild if Forensic Eval gained skill when you targetted them.

If successful it would reveal permaness...

[Eaglestaff]

You sure About that mens rea? If youv'e got ant proof that would be cool.

[Hawkins]

I don't know about perma grey, but here's another function of Forensic Eval I found.

"If you have a certain level of ability in the skill, using it on recently picked containers will reveal who the lockpicker was. "

http://wiki.uosecondage.com/index.php?t ... 02/24/1999

Not having the skill, I can't tell if it works this way currently or not. Same with Forensic Eval on corpses.

[archaicsubrosa77]

I'd like to know. I don't play my detective much because it doesn't distinguish a perma grey thief from a innocent. Anyone in the thieves guild simply brings back "That is a thief" or some form of it atleast. It'd have to wait till I could log on to check the message. I've gotten guardwhacked on my detective while trying to rid Britain of thieves.

Thats why you steal mounts from them or their tamer counterparts who do the horse trick with supposed buyers to get them to drop gold and say they never got it and never flag grey ahemmmmm.....cough...cough

[Derrick]

I don't know about perma grey, but here's another function of Forensic Eval I found.

"If you have a certain level of ability in the skill, using it on recently picked containers will reveal who the lockpicker was. "

http://wiki.uosecondage.com/index.php?t ... 02/24/1999

Not having the skill, I can't tell if it works this way currently or not. Same with Forensic Eval on corpses.

Yes, forensic eval does all this, and additionally will tell you the bounty value of a head.

[kau]

I did not play a detective during this era, but I did some research using stratics and poring through the official publish/patch notes and this is what I came up with:

• Forensic Evaluation will tell you whether a person is in the thieves guild, as most everyone knows.
• Forensic Evaluation will not let you know if someone is perma grey.
• Someone who is indeed perma grey was attackable in town, without fear of retribution from the guards.
• The way that it was determined whether a thief was perma once you’d identified them was to use the stealing skill (even if you had 0 stealing skill) if you able to make the attempt then you knew the person was perma grey. (They changed you being able to do this, but fortunately for everyone on this shard the change occurred on January 24, 2000)



The two articles that I made these deductions from, and the passages detailing it are as follows, with important information in bold:


Detecting Perma.
Perma is short for "Permanently Gray". When someone steals from a blue character (NPC, Player or pet) they turn gray for two minutes. Everyone may be able see this. After the two minutes are up they appear blue to everyone EXCEPT the person they stole from.

Because of recent changes, it is now impossible to tell if a character is a thief in town AND then attack him. You can tell he is a thief of course, simply by using the Forensics skill on him, but this DOES NOT give you any in-town privileges. To reiterate, even if the skill tells you "This individual is a thief" you cannot attack him in town, unless he is otherwise gray or perma. You WILL be guard-whacked. Outside town, of course, you can pick a fight, sure in the knowledge that there will be no count, but it is of course at your risk.

http://uo.stratics.com/content/professi ... tive.shtml


And here is the patch notes dated in January of 2000:


You will no longer be able to use the stealing skill to determine if someone is "perma-gray".
• Players who are not in the Thieves Guild will not be able to steal from other players at all.


With cited link: http://www.uoherald.com/news/news.php?newsid=596\



Now, I did some experimenting with perma grey with a thief character and a detective character. Whether or not the thief went grey while stealing, or stayed blue made no difference to being able to attack him in town. Detective still went grey, guards were able to be called by thief. Stealing from the thief while his was supposed to be perma grey was not an option as you get the must be in thieves guild message.


So, I propose, based on the research with cited text that detectives be allowed to test perma on thieves they’ve identified by attempting to steal from them. If the thief is perma he should be able to be attacked even in town without the detective having to fear a guard whack.


I hope I’ve drawn the right conclusions with this and it is able to be implemented, as this will cut back on bank thieves, plus add in a very viable class for people to play as. I can say honestly, that as a person who plays a thief that this will add another element of excitement and danger to being a thief, as well as requiring one to use all their cunning and ingenuity to be a successful thief rather than just stealing in front of the bank and if you get guard whacked, shrugging, ressing and continuing.

Proposal finished.

Comments? Rebuttal? Contradictory or supportive research?
As I said, I didn’t play a detective in this era, so I may be off base with the conclusions, but it seems logical.

[MatronDeWinter]

I did not play a detective during this era, but I did some research using stratics and poring through the official publish/patch notes and this is what I came up with:

• Forensic Evaluation will tell you whether a person is in the thieves guild, as most everyone knows.
• Forensic Evaluation will not let you know if someone is perma grey.
• Someone who is indeed perma grey was attackable in town, without fear of retribution from the guards.
• The way that it was determined whether a thief was perma once you’d identified them was to use the stealing skill (even if you had 0 stealing skill) if you able to make the attempt then you knew the person was perma grey. (They changed you being able to do this, but fortunately for everyone on this shard the change occurred on January 24, 2000)



The two articles that I made these deductions from, and the passages detailing it are as follows, with important information in bold:


Detecting Perma.
Perma is short for "Permanently Gray". When someone steals from a blue character (NPC, Player or pet) they turn gray for two minutes. Everyone may be able see this. After the two minutes are up they appear blue to everyone EXCEPT the person they stole from.

Because of recent changes, it is now impossible to tell if a character is a thief in town AND then attack him. You can tell he is a thief of course, simply by using the Forensics skill on him, but this DOES NOT give you any in-town privileges. To reiterate, even if the skill tells you "This individual is a thief" you cannot attack him in town, unless he is otherwise gray or perma. You WILL be guard-whacked. Outside town, of course, you can pick a fight, sure in the knowledge that there will be no count, but it is of course at your risk.

http://uo.stratics.com/content/professi ... tive.shtml


And here is the patch notes dated in January of 2000:


You will no longer be able to use the stealing skill to determine if someone is "perma-gray".
• Players who are not in the Thieves Guild will not be able to steal from other players at all.


With cited link: http://www.uoherald.com/news/news.php?newsid=596\



Now, I did some experimenting with perma grey with a thief character and a detective character. Whether or not the thief went grey while stealing, or stayed blue made no difference to being able to attack him in town. Detective still went grey, guards were able to be called by thief. Stealing from the thief while his was supposed to be perma grey was not an option as you get the must be in thieves guild message.


So, I propose, based on the research with cited text that detectives be allowed to test perma on thieves they’ve identified by attempting to steal from them. If the thief is perma he should be able to be attacked even in town without the detective having to fear a guard whack.


I hope I’ve drawn the right conclusions with this and it is able to be implemented, as this will cut back on bank thieves, plus add in a very viable class for people to play as. I can say honestly, that as a person who plays a thief that this will add another element of excitement and danger to being a thief, as well as requiring one to use all their cunning and ingenuity to be a successful thief rather than just stealing in front of the bank and if you get guard whacked, shrugging, ressing and continuing.

Proposal finished.

Comments? Rebuttal? Contradictory or supportive research?
As I said, I didn’t play a detective in this era, so I may be off base with the conclusions, but it seems logical.

This is already how it works here. It has worked this way for a great deal of time as well.

[Eaglestaff]

From what i could at the time i was testing this and making this thread perma grey isn't working. meaning that if you attack or steal form a thief that just got done stealing from a blue you can be guard whacked.

[Derrick]

From what i could at the time i was testing this and making this thread perma grey isn't working. meaning that if you attack or steal form a thief that just got done stealing from a blue you can be guard whacked.

How did you test this?