Forensic Eval and Perma Grey

[Eaglestaff]

So Ive been experimenting with thieving and I've got a question about perma grey. What I did was steel something with my thief and then try attacking myself with another character. The thief was able to call guards on my other char and I don't know why because it was my understanding that whenever you steel you go perma grey and it doesn't matter if you get away with it and appear blue because you are still really grey.


So then my question is: Do you -always- go perma grey when you steal or just on partial failure? - That meaning you may appear blue but you can be attacked?

Stratics on Forensics-

It says that if you reveal someone is in the thieves guild using Forensics then you can attack them (even if they aren't perma grey). This is from current stratics so might not be t2a


..."If you are a member of the NPC Thieve's Guild, any player who successfully uses the Forensic Evaluation skill to reveal your membership in said guild may either attack or steal from you. If a player attacks you and that player dies and reports you for murder, you will be suspended from the thieves guild for the amount of time it takes for the short murder count (8 hours) to decay. While suspended you still cannot give murder counts, but cannot use the disguise kit or steal from innocents."...

- http://uo.stratics.com/content/reputation/flags.shtml

[Kaivan]

Given the fact that the description is in the context of a perma grey flag, anyone who uses forensic evaluation on someone who currently has a perma grey flag is likely to physically see that particular flag (recall that perma-grey thieves appear blue to everyone except their victims and (probably) those who successfully use the Forensic Evaluation). Given that case, it would seem reasonable that a detective could steal and attack you openly with 100% certainty that they would not be attacking an innocent thief. Beyond that, the description of a thief who is attacked by another person and kills that person in self-defense receiving a murder count is a direct result of the aggressor flag that is set when a thief steals and is noticed by their opponent. It is unreasonable, and undocumented, of any instance where a thief who was simply in the thieves guild was not only marked as attackable (a la perma grey), but also the aggressor as a result of another person's forensic evaluation.

In any case, I'll run this by Derrick if he doesn't actually see it himself in this thread. It's pretty much an almost 100% solid bet that forensic evaluation revealed the perma-grey status of a thief as the result of a successful evaluation. Also, the page that was linked was essentially accurate to the era despite being on a current stratics site. But, just for the sake of referring to in-era material, here is an archived page.

[Eaglestaff]

Some confusion about perma grey:

What I did was I attacked my thief with my detective after having him steel gold from a barkeep and then revealing that he was in the thieves guild with forensics. Forensics did not reveal his perma grey status if indeed he was perma grey. His name was still blue and he was also able to call guards on me. So apparently the thief somehow was not flagged perma grey after committing theft. It was my understanding that a thief always went perma grey on any attempt of stealing pass or fail on either players or npcs and that it meant that anyone could attack them not just a detective. In my testing the thief was able to commit theft and call guards to whack (myself). I will try stealing from players to see perhaps if that will cause the game to treat the thief as perma grey

[Eaglestaff]

Perma grey isn't working-

Upon further testing and observation I have concluded that perma-grey isn't working. The game is not treating thieves as perma grey after stealing. Meaning, after having stolen, stealing or attacking the the offending thief is considered a criminal action.

[Derrick]

Perma grey isn't working-

Upon further testing and observation I have concluded that perma-grey isn't working. The game is not treating thieves as perma grey after stealing. Meaning, after having stolen, stealing or attacking the the offending thief is considered a criminal action.

Be aware that there are a few thieves that run around with the same name. However, we are currently testing this

[Fwerp]

You should be able to just attempt stealing from a perma-grey player.

If a non-guilded person can attempt to steal, they are clearly perma-grey. Otherwise, they are not.

[Derrick]

This method of detecting perma-gray thieves is not currently working. This will be fixed in the next publish

[Eaglestaff]

Would this method of detecting perma grey thieves (attempting to steal from them) work if the system is not treating thieves as perma grey upon stealing? Maybe that's why this method of detecting perma grey thieves isn't working.

[Derrick]

Thieves that are perma-gray, are not "really" innocent, but can appear to be (blue), therefore you would not need to be in the thieves guild to steal from them. Currently the stealing system is not recognizing this. Will be fixed in the morning.

[Eaglestaff]

In any case, I'll run this by Derrick if he doesn't actually see it himself in this thread. It's pretty much an almost 100% solid bet that forensic evaluation revealed the perma-grey status of a thief as the result of a successful evaluation. Also, the page that was linked was essentially accurate to the era despite being on a current stratics site. But, just for the sake of referring to in-era material, here is an archived page.

So if its era then can it be expected to be implemented in the not too distant future or is it too minor to to be a priority?

[Derrick]

In any case, I'll run this by Derrick if he doesn't actually see it himself in this thread. It's pretty much an almost 100% solid bet that forensic evaluation revealed the perma-grey status of a thief as the result of a successful evaluation. Also, the page that was linked was essentially accurate to the era despite being on a current stratics site. But, just for the sake of referring to in-era material, here is an archived page.

So if its era then can it be expected to be implemented in the not too distant future or is it too minor to to be a priority?

This cited reference is a little vague and I'm honestly just not sure how/if this ever worked. I would certainly put it in if I had some more information on this. Is the proposal that a pre-grey thief would turn grey if you used forensic on him?

[Eaglestaff]

The proposal is that even if the thief is not pre-grey he is still open game to the successful detective (and only the detective) simply by being revealed to be in the guild.

"...any player who successfully uses the Forensic Evaluation skill to reveal your membership in said guild may either attack or steal from you."

http://web.archive.org/web/200006070131 ... flags.html

This should have been two separate threads, one on perma grey not seemingly working and one on the forensics issue.

[Kaivan]

The proposal is that even if the thief has not recently stolen he is still open game to the successful detective simply by being in the guild.

"...any player who successfully uses the Forensic Evaluation skill to reveal your membership in said guild may either attack or steal from you."

This would infer that the thief does not appear grey to everyone, only that the detective can attack and steal. Also, it is referring to membership in the guild and not to perma grey status. It also does not specify what happens when a member of the thieves guild uses forensics on another thief.

Considering that the information is contained within the perma-grey status portion of the flags page, it stands to reason that any of this information is applied only to a thief who is perma grey. The alternative is to believe that any thief who is in the thieves guild can be freely attacked simply by using the forensics skill on them, and if we read further:

"If a player attacks you and that player dies and reports you for murder, you will be suspended from the thieves guild for the amount of time it takes for the short murder count (8 hours) to decay."

we would also be forced to believe that the thief would also not be able to defend themselves or face expulsion from the thieves guild, simply because a player with forensics evaluation detected the thief.

On a closer reading of the flags thread itself, there are several misconceptions about stealing and the flags that are received as a thief when comparing them to the known information directly from DD in the HoC chats. There isn't actually a 'stealing' flag, only an aggressor, criminal, and perma-grey flag, and there are severe misconceptions about what conditions create an environment where a flag can be applied to the thief, and also what flags create specific punishments (i.e. expulsion from the thieves guild).

Ultimately there are only 3 possible ways this can go:

• Forensics reveals a thief as a thief guild member, makes him freely attackable, and makes the thief unable to defend themselves, regardless of their previous actions since their last resurrection (least likely, and completely contrary to all the known information from DD on the subject).
• Forensics reveals a thief as a thief guild member, and reveals the perma grey status the thief, if they are indeed perma grey. This result does not make the thief unable to defend themselves as the thief is not considered an aggressor (middle likelihood based off of an interpretive reading of the flags page)
• Forensics reveals a thief as a thief guild member and only does that (most likely result if we disregard the flags page's very inaccurate information on the subject.

[Ronk]

From my memory, I think #2 was accurate.

I recall that thieves couldn't give counts, so you could use forensics to identify if someone was in the thieves guild and murder them freely (assuming they weren't in town, of course).

I am fairly sure that forensics did reveal perma status though I can't remember what era. I don't recall my thief ever being booted from the thieves guild for defending myself. Then again, usually I just ran.

[Xukluk Tuguznal]

I'd like to know. I don't play my detective much because it doesn't distinguish a perma grey thief from a innocent. Anyone in the thieves guild simply brings back "That is a thief" or some form of it atleast. It'd have to wait till I could log on to check the message. I've gotten guardwhacked on my detective while trying to rid Britain of thieves.